Tumbling continued

[Matt Anthony]

Happened to be going through my favorites and found this article, I think this will put the controversy to rest, or just make it worse..............

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/09/why-you-should-not-tumble-clean-loaded-ammo/

[joem]

I don't tumble my reloads because the cases are clean before I load them. My reloads look as good as factory anyway.

[da gimp]

agree with both of you, Matt, the factory expert said the same as another major powder/ammo manufacturer's rep told me..................do not do it.

[Hefights]

Key is prolonged exposure. It would take a long time of tumbling or vibrating to change the properties and burn rates of modern powder. I dont do it because I dont have to. However I would really like to see the test data they are referring to.

[Matt Anthony]

Since I do not participate in this type of cleaning, I would not bother to experiment, however there are people out there with more time than others.
Take 30/06 cases with spent primers, load different powders for the 30/06, plug the neck and start tumbling or vibrating. 6 hours, 12 hours, 18 hours, 24 hours. Then, 1 day, 2 days, 3 days and so on....................... Disassembling and checking the powder under a microscope or sending samples to the manufacturer for analysis at every interval....... Right...........
Don't think it's worth the time and certainly not worth losing all that powder. Clean your cases before reloading, they should be clean, dry and free of any foreign substance before you start your reloading process. That is published in all manuals I have ever read!
Now, the dirty case from storage, which isn't dirt, but changes in color of the brass known as tarnish. Well, in a military rifle, I believe it doesn't matter as their chambers are generous as they were intended to be used in severe conditions. If the tarnished case has green spots, that is corrosion. Take steel wool to those area's and see the damage to the case. you will see a minute amount of the brass case is now pitted and in my opinion one should not fire those rounds, period!
Years ago, back in the early 50's my father bought an enormous amount of military surplus, LC52 30/06 ammo. He demilled 20,000 rounds, putting the powder in a keg, depriming due to corrosive primers and cleaning the bullets as they were armour piercing projectiles with sealer. He made a homemade tumbler and we used rice for media. The ammo all came from the same lot and throughout his last 30 years he shot this powder, never buying any commercial powder. When he passed in 1983, I still had some powder left and had a last salute to his life of shooting and reloading. I am still using LC-52 cases he bought. And even back then he had ones that showed deteriorization. He kept the bad cases, in fact, I still have them in an old suitcase!
He taught me everything about reloading and made me read the Phil Sharpe reloading book before I could touch any ammo. He then tested me on content and I had to read it again! When he was absolutely sure I had read the information, I was on my way to making safe, accurate and reliable reloads under his instruction. He indicated to me that the reading of the book was for basic operational techniques and to get my attention! I sure wish more parents would involve themselves into their children and what their children are doing. We have present generations that are ignorant of our sport as they have been brainwashed by their school teachers as the shooting sports is something evil! It's really too bad and may destroy our sport in the coming years!
Matt

[PhillipM]

Since I do not participate in this type of cleaning, I would not bother to experiment, however there are people out there with more time than others.
Take 30/06 cases with spent primers, load different powders for the 30/06, plug the neck and start tumbling or vibrating. 6 hours, 12 hours, 18 hours, 24 hours. Then, 1 day, 2 days, 3 days and so on.......

Here's some at 205 hours and 300 hours. spoiler alert, no visible change under a microscope and no difference in pressure when fired.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/989047_.html

From Matt's link, “Completed ammo should not be tumbled. The powder will degrade and increase in burn speed.” (From Mike Daly, Customer Satisfaction Manager, Hodgdon/IMR.)

http://www.americanhunter.org/blog.php?id=21301&cat=56

"The Expert Deferral
Logic alone isn’t enough when it comes to harnessing propellant gases mere inches from a shooter’s face, so we asked experts at two of the World’s leading powder and ammunition makers. I spoke to the Chief Ballistic Scientist at Hornady Manufacturing and the Head Ballistician at Hodgdon Powder and asked for their professional opinions. Both agreed that this is a myth devoid of empirical data.
"Powder is hard, it doesn’t change shape from any reasonable amount of vibration,” said Hornady’s Dave Emary. “This notion that you can wear deterrent off of the surface of the powder is a myth, it is impregnated into the powder grains. You can’t knock this stuff off."

First 15 seconds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwEgAkI6sEA

Some around the net will say they tumbled old corroded ammo for hours and their gun kaboomed, blaming the tumbling instead of the ammo that was questionable to begin with.

[Tuna]

I would say this Myth is Busted. But to each their own. If you believe in the myth then don't tumble or vibrate clean loaded ammo. If you don't then go ahead and clean your loaded ammo as I do in my vibrating cleaner.

[Hefights]

Outstanding post PhillipM of an excellent test!

I would still withhold final conclusive judgment until I saw the test done on extruded powder like IMR 4064, Varget or other. However I am now more convinced that reasonable tumbling or vibrating time just to polish / clean any live ammo will not cause the problem of deterioration and change of burn rate.

Very interesting that the Head Ballistician and the Customer Service Rep at Hodgdon Powder Co seem to contradict each other. However, not surprizing, somewhere in there, there may be a lawyer hiding behind the scenes.

However that internet piece against tumbling live ammo referenced some unspecified commercial testing to support their claim that powder would deteriorate. I would like to see those tests.

[Hefights]

Story of break down of milsurp ammo for reloading in the 50's. That is an amazing story in itself. You should write that into an article for publishing and/or online publishing, and for relating around other reloading forums. Many reloaders / shooters would enjoy that story its really cool!

[da gimp]

Alliants guy told us not to also...........................it is not worth the risk..............

[Johnny in Texas]

Fear of unknown does not equal risk. The people saying don't do it are just erring on the side of caution because they don't know what could happen. So it comes down to what one feels comfortable with. Not right or wrong. Do what feeeeels right for you. LOL!

[da gimp]

variables that were not discussed here........... compressed load or not? how much empty space left in the case? What type powder.....length of time loaded ammo is tumbled........... Alliants' guy told us definitely not to load loaded ammo & said at the least, we would be introducing another variable by tumbling loaded ammo, when our intent is to always consistently produce the exact same loads/ the exact same way for accuracy................