Need info on a WWII "Bavarian" S&W Victory

[SloopJohnB]

A while back, I picked up a nice, original S&W Victory in .38 SPL with a "Bavaria Municipal Police" marking on it. I know from the weapons we gave the Germans after WWII that there were a number of Victory's, 1911's, and particularly M1 carbines marked and used by the various German/Austrian agencies.
While I know there are some of these out there, I'm curious as to how many of the 4" barrel Victory's you collectors have seen that are marked ".38 spl". Apparently, according to Roy Jinks at S&W, most of these revolvers were 5" barrels and chambered in .38 Smith & Wesson. He further states that he has not seen one marked/chambered like this.
I'd be interested in and appreciate any info you folks have as to other similarly marked Victorys you may have run across out there.
Thanks for your time.

[emmagee1917]

You are slightly misreading his letter ( or I yours ) .
Most all 4-inch barrel Victories were .38 spl. and most all of them went to the Navy . The markings on yours , except the police markings , are quite common . Most lend lease / foriegn aid Victories were 5-inch and .38S&W chambered. The interesting question is how a navy purchased Victory came to be on land and given to the Bavarians in the first place. I could see an army one given away ( they knew they would have plenty of M1911A1s for post war uses ) , but how a navy one got there ?
Chris

[gwp]

Here is V 480578 marked as yours is.

[SloopJohnB]

Emmagee, you stated it so much more succinctly than I. Sorry about the confusion. I understand that aside from the "Bavarian" marking, this revolver is pretty much the configuration (4" barrel/.38 spl) as issued to the Navy, and that there are a number of these out there. My real question pertains to the number of these that found their way to the Germans since most of the Victorys they received seem to be Lend-Lease with 5" barrels in .38 S&W.
Thanks for the responses gents.

[gwp]

Here is some information from: http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/bavaria.html

Prior to February 6, 1946, a limited quantity of U.S. weapons had been provided on a local basis in Bavaria, but the primary weapons the police had been allowed to carry, when they were allowed to carry a weapon, were Italian Carcano carbines. When the M1 carbine replaced the Italian Carcano, the police in Bavaria were happy to get the U.S. M1 carbines. The M1 carbine was the only rifle approved for use by the police of Bavaria during the entire ten years of occupation. The vast majority of U.S. weapons were provided (on loan only) to the Waffenamt between 06 February 1946 and 30 July 1947.

U.S. Weapons to Bavaria 06 Feb 1946 - 30 Jul 1947

M1 carbines 14674
S&W Revolvers 7904
1911A1 Pistols 281

Allied Control Council Directive #16 on 10 Oct 1945 had allowed the occupation governments in each of the four occupation zones to arm the city police with pistols, the "rural" police and new "frontier" police with carbines. The Control Council directed that the weapons be marked in a manner that identified the police agency, but did not specify the manner in which this should be done. Within the American Occupation Zone, how this would be accomplished was left to each military governor and their staff. OMGUS Bavaria ordered the weapons to be marked with the type of agency, in English, as opposed to the name of a city, Statdtkreis, or Landkreis. Thus the markings "Bavaria Rural Police", "Bavaria Municipal Police", Bavaria Border Police", etc. Bavaria was the only jurisdiction in West Germany that used these names on their weapons.

[SloopJohnB]

Good info, thanks GWP!

[Johnny P]

President Truman ended Lend-Lease almost as soon as the war in the Pacific ended. Roy Jinks statement would seem to indicate that the S&W revolvers in question came from the British.

[Tom Doniphon]

I've got a 4" 38 special Victory that made it to post War Germany. It's V498607 that was shipped on 12/30/43 to the Navy in Rosslyn, VA (lot of OSS guns were shipped there). It has no martial markings, only a P proof mark on the upper left side plate. There are also two milled out areas on the left side plate (one above the other) exactly the shape of the "Bavarian Municipal Police" and other German police marks found on these Victory Models. It also has German proof marks, a large W mark on the butt which mark is found on several Victory revolvers in the same serial number range, and the GECO mark of the German entity, Gustav Genschow & Co. on the butt.

[SloopJohnB]

Close to mine Tom. Mine is #457689 and was shipped to the U.S. Navy, Norfolk, VA on 12/15/43. Would you mind posting some pics of the gun and those markings?
Thanks,
John

[Tom Doniphon]

John, check your Forum email, please.

[DAVEB47]

I have a victory in the same ballpark serial # wise (446024). Its a 4" .38 special marked HE-M which is supposed to denote issuance to the Hesse Municipal Police.

24422

[SloopJohnB]

Some interesting stories out there. Obviously, some of the 4" .38 spl guns made their way into the Germans police agencies hands at war's end. Thanks for sharing.

[gwp]

I read the 38 S&W Victory Models were British Lend Lease revolvers and they were issued in the British Sector. In the American sector the 38 Special Victory Models were issued.

[Johnny P]

Maybe like Barney Fife they were issued only one bullet, so ammunition logistics was not a problem.