View Full Version : Looking at a RIA M1903...
jonnyo55
11-14-2013, 04:46
Hello to all. I got a chance last weekend to check out what seems to be a mint RIA M1903. A couple of questions are nagging at me, though...
S/N range is 279xxx, and I believe the barrel is a RIA 9/18, mirror bore. About 99% nice dark parkerizing with sharp edges & lettering indicating lack of refinish. Beautiful finger groove stock w/ RI at tip. However...
1) Bolt is a swept handle, with "J3" on bottom of safety lug. SA bolt?
2) Stock has no inspector's cartouches or initials. I believe the circle P is sans serif.
3) Deeply checkered buttplate.
I know that RIA rifles are somewhat of a law unto themselves, but the lack of inspection stamps and the swept J3 bolt concern me. What's the consensus?
Rick the Librarian
11-14-2013, 06:03
The bolt is probably a J5, not J3 - in any case, you are right - a Springfield bolt from about mid-1918. Depending on how "deeply" checkered. it may be a 1930s buttplate which would definitely be a replacement.
"Technically" the serial number is one of the low numbered receivers, but was in the "gray area" that could have been double heat-treated. There was a couple of interesting threads on a rifle of Fred G's in the same serial range some time ago, if you can locate them. There is a possibility that your rifle could be substantially original. Any chance of pictures?
Yes please post lots of pictures! I'll bet that its one of the Double Heat Treated Lower numbered Receivers. Does the front band have an H stamped into the bayonet lug? Pictures of the circled P proof and also of the left side of the wrist where the inspection cartouche should be. Also of the RI at stock tip.
Does it have a grooved trigger? Pictures please.
Also... Who is selling it and for how much?
John Beard
11-14-2013, 07:44
Hello to all. I got a chance last weekend to check out what seems to be a mint RIA M1903. A couple of questions are nagging at me, though...
S/N range is 279xxx, and I believe the barrel is a RIA 9/18, mirror bore. About 99% nice dark parkerizing with sharp edges & lettering indicating lack of refinish. Beautiful finger groove stock w/ RI at tip. However...
1) Bolt is a swept handle, with "J3" on bottom of safety lug. SA bolt?
2) Stock has no inspector's cartouches or initials. I believe the circle P is sans serif.
3) Deeply checkered buttplate.
I know that RIA rifles are somewhat of a law unto themselves, but the lack of inspection stamps and the swept J3 bolt concern me. What's the consensus?
(1) Yes, but the marking should be "J 5".
(2) If the stock has a proof mark, then it should have an inspection stamp. A sans serif proof mark did not originate from Rock Island Arsenal.
(3) A deeply-checkered buttplate is not contemporary with the serial number.
Hope this helps.
J.B.
jonnyo55
11-14-2013, 11:53
Unfortunately, I was not able to get any pics...I saw the rifle rather briefly, but long enough to pique my interest. It can be obtained for $1000.
The trigger is smooth, as would be expected. The thing that throws me is the SA bolt...any chance that it left RIA that way? How hard an item to obtain is the correct RIA bolt? Except for the oddments noted, this rifle appears to be virtually unissued, with original finish on both metal and wood. VERY attractive...
One odd feature that I've never seen before in decades of looking at these rifles concerns a 3-digit rack number located just in front of the buttplate tang at the rear of the stock comb...the rack number itself is not so unusual, but immediately in front of it is a large transverse gouge that looks like a previous rack number had been removed rather drastically with a round rasp. The three digit number does NOT correspond with the rifle's serial number. Again, I've never seen this type of "trough" cut across the stock...not until tonight, when I noticed the same thing in front of the same type of rack number in the photos that another member (Jangle) posted of his '09 RIA M1903. Look at the leftmost pic in post #8. Strange, strange coincidence!
Also not common to find is the Unit Identification stamped on the buttplate tang: Troop H,
8th Cavalry, trooper #18 (thanks Ed B.)
Dick Hosmer
11-15-2013, 07:17
I'm not at all familiar with the blocking in an '03 crate, but I can say that I have seen similar marks in the butt-stocks of trapdoors. Are there any flattened impressions on the side(s) of the stock, from the plate to about 2" forward of same. The excellent finish might indicate a lot of miles rattling around in a crate.
Rick the Librarian
11-15-2013, 08:23
Unfortunately, I was not able to get any pics...I saw the rifle rather briefly, but long enough to pique my interest. It can be obtained for $1000.
The trigger is smooth, as would be expected. The thing that throws me is the SA bolt...any chance that it left RIA that way?
!
Your question about the SA bolt was one of the reasons I wanted you to access a couple of the threads dealing with these rifles. It was during this period (early 1918) that a lot of these rifles were made as "parts sets" and, from what I read, some of them may have been sent to Springfield Armory. Fred has a really nice example and I have one that I changed the stock, 272,505, (which I wish I had not!). :(
John, about the left hand side of the wrist... you mentioned that there wasn't an inspectors cartouche or initials. Did you happened to see if there was a single letter stamped into the left side of the rifle? I have such a rifle with an L stamped in place where a boxed cartouche would be expected to be seen. Do you have a recollection of seeing any such single letter stamp? Thanks.
jonnyo55
11-15-2013, 09:52
Rick, that's an interesting idea regarding the possible "Parts set" status...would go a long way towards explaining the SA bolt, along with the sans serif "P" proof. Still wondering about the lack of cartouche, though...but, there WAS a war going on! The rifle just has that not-messed-with, original "feel". Regarding the buttplate, could be that some owner in the '50's or '60's just preferred a checkered butt from a user's standpoint, and swapped it out. I know that I've done more foolish things than that!
Kind of seems like I'm talking myself into it, huh? :)
I didn't realize that any units stamped markings onto their 03s, thanks for sharing RCS. Shame that wasn't common practice...
jonnyo55, I picked up a 37 SA last week, and I had the exact same deal with the stock- it had the script P, but no cartouches. On closer inspection, I could see that a very, very long time ago they had been sanded off- perhaps this could be the case for you as well? Funny thing is my stock also had a much later model butt plate put on as well.
jonnyo55
12-06-2013, 12:17
My memory must have transposed the s/n digits...the correct s/n for the RIA I'm looking at is 297804. Prob'ly going to pick it up next week...
Any further intelligence considering the revised s/n?
Your receiver is double heat treated for sure then.
jonnyo55
12-07-2013, 11:50
I'll be doing my final inspection prior to purchase next week. Which parts should I be looking for an ordnance bomb on? Any other things I should be looking for? I can live with the SA bolt, but what I DON'T want is a RIA barrelled receiver and stock with the remainder of SA parts...or would that be correct, too? TIA for any advice...and I'll be sure to post pics if she follows me home!
jonnyo55- also check out to see if there is a possibility of it being a Marine Corps 1903, if that is the case, they hold a bit more value. There are a few things to look for:
1. "Hatcher Hole" drilled into the left side of the receiver on the other side of the small hole below the SN
2. Greenish color to the parkerizing
3. #10 rear sighting system and larger front sight hood
4. Plumber's table marks on barrel- not present if the barrel is original
5. Stippled butt plate
6. Stock w/o cartouches
7. Punch mark before serial number
8. Serial number electro-penned onto bolt
Not all USMC rifles have all of these or any, but they are something just to look out for.
Before you go changing and "correcting things" on your rifle, you might want to remember that the Rock Island Barreled action and stock might (I'm no expert) have been sent to Springfield Armory in late 1918 or maybe even early 1919 to be completed with Springfield parts. It's quite possible that I have one of those rifles. To change it all out would be to strip away the collectability and associated value that the rifle might have.
Rick the Librarian
12-07-2013, 03:22
I quite agree -- I can think of 2-3 rifles I've had that I tried to "correct" that I wish now I had left my fingers off! :(
On top of which, if you were to remove all of the parts you thought were Springfield Armory and replace them with all Rock Island Armory parts, your rifle would for certain and forever more, be just an assemblage of parts put together with absolutely no original integrity or history. Regardless of how well it looked afterwards, it would never be worth such a rifle that was originally all Rock Island. Only rifles in original configuration that have Not been put together or repaired with swapped out parts are given the associated values as quoted in Flayderman's Price Guide in the section on 1903's. All others are forever more just parts guns. An expert can tell if something has been replaced or changed. You might not think it possible, but after years and decades of experience, it most certainly can. The rifle you speak of, in its present condition, is now permanently noted in the 1903 collection world as being what it now is. Hold off on doing anything to it until it can be inspected by photo's or in person by one of the guys here who are the ones that contribute to and write the books on the subject. This is where they gather and their knowledge is The ultimate reference on the subject. You just might have an interesting example of an originally configured rifle.
Here is my Rock Island 03 that has a Rock Island barreled action and RIA 7-18 barrel that has all other Springfield Armory parts on it. Its stock has the non serif P under the wrist (Springfield) but it strangely has a single letter L on the left side that is identical to and appears to be a known Rock Island stamp of an inspector there for that time period. The safety and cut off are also Springfield. Overall, the rifle appears to be in original configuration as far as age and wear of all parts, that being near pristine condition. The finish on the metal is also original and unrestored and has the appearance of a Springfield finish for that specific time period. Is it a rifle assembled from Rock Island and Springfield parts? Most certainly. Is it in original configuration or is it just a rifle that was reassembled from piles of cleaned parts after all of a unit's rifles were torn down for cleaning shortly after receiving them? That is a question yet to be ascertained, but in the mean time, I'm not touching a single thing on it. If and I mean if it's still in original configuration as it left Springfield Armory in 1918, The rifle is valuable for research to collectors as a seldom encountered example of its type and of what was going on at that time.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/spring5_zpsd171064e.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/spring5_zpsd171064e.jpg.html)
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http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss17_zpsa367f337.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss17_zpsa367f337.jpg.html)
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very nice rifle Fred... I hope to be able to add a Rock River to my collection soon.
Is the make/date of the 1907 sling you have on it visible?
jonnyo55
12-07-2013, 08:32
I'm not looking to "restore" the rifle by adding RIA parts on a piecemeal basis...I'd just like some way of determining whether or not the parts on the rifle are RIA. I've read that many 1918 parts will bear an ordnance bomb stamp...which ones do, and which ones do not?
John Beard said that only Rock Island parts made after mid 1918 had the bomb stamped into them. There are other stamps put on by inspectors who used their initials that can be used to determine if the part was Springfield or Rock Island made.
Rick the Librarian
12-07-2013, 08:59
I believe late 1918.
Rick, I'm wondering if the reason Rock Island started doing that was because they might've started sending parts to Springfield then in some quantity to be completed into rifles and somebody thought it would be a good idea to be able to identify where a particular part originated from that there was trouble with down the road. Just taking a guess at it all.
Jon Field
12-08-2013, 04:09
Very beautiful rifle!!!!!!!
Why Thanks Jon. I'm glad ya like it!
Is the make/date of the 1907 sling you have on it visible?
Ya know Tim, when the sling arrived on one of my rifles I'd bought, it was so flexible and in such nice shape, I originally thought it was a reproduction. Then I noticed the thick brass claws and the faint stamping and date of 1918. Whatever someone treated it with when it was new, it kept the sling from drying out and getting stiff. Lucky day for me when it arrived on the rifle. I believe it was my Mark I. Glad you like the rifle!!
Fred the reason I asked is because it looks completely identical to mine in every way- color, brass, you name it... I picked it up from a trusted source and know it is original, but was also surprised by how flexible mine was too. I can see where the stamp was, but its impossible to cleanly make out what it says. I wouldn't be surprised if they were treated with the same stuff.
jonnyo55
12-19-2013, 04:49
Well! I picked up the rifle in question today, RIA M1903 # 297804, and it came with some surprises. It is, as far as I can tell, virtually unfired, and the only wear present is that caused by handling. All parts except as noted with an "*" are black parkerized over a smooth, non-sandblasted metal finish. Here goes:
1) Bbl. is a 9/18 RIA with a mirror bore; center of ordnance bomb lacks proof punch. Proof "P" is stamped on the bottom of the barrel about an inch behind the front sight. "C121" is stamped on top of barrel between the lower band and rear sight base. Front sight and base unmarked; rear sight features dished ungrooved elevation slide knob and an unmarked flat windage knob...a surprise! Rear sight base is one piece, and displays some rough machining marks at the area just below the lightening cuts. Volley sight notch present at top of sight ladder. No proof punch is present atop the right hand bolt lug clearance raceway just below the serial number.
2) Stock is dual bolt finger groove and features "RI" in serif undotted letters 3/16" high stamped on tip. Single no serif gothic circle "P" measures 7/16" and is located behind TG with the numeral "10" between TG and proof. Checkered pre-1917 style service buttplate; rack number "722" is transversely stamped on top of butt immediately in front of buttplate tang. There is a transverse "trough" present in front of this number where a previous number was presumably removed. Handguard is concave, with semicircular windage knob clearance cut and no fixturing slot.
Here's the big surprise: Where I initially thought there was no acceptance cartouche present, close examination reveals the faint presence of the letter "L" at the bottom of one of the handling dents on the stock, which are the only signs of use the rifle displays. Unfortunately, whatever caused the dent also had the effect of boning the letter into virtual invisibility.
3) Bolt is a swept handle SA; markings are "J5" on the bottom of the safety lug, and a proof punch along with what appears to be the bottom of a serif letter "K" on the bottom of the bolt root. Cocking piece has the grooving characteristics of RIA production, and, along with the shroud, is unmarked. Sans serif safety lettering. Small gas hole, and the bolt face shows no sign of a cartridge having ever been fired.
4) Upper band displays letter "H" on bayonet lug, lower band displays sans serif "U" along with solid shank sling swivel and solid screw.
5) Trigger (*) is black casehardened, ungrooved, and pointed. Unmarked cutoff (*) is also black casehardened, with sans serif letters, and has the "ON" side buffed bright. Floorplate is unmarked and displays RIA machining characteristics.
None of the "extras" such as sling, sight hood, or cleaning kit are present. I plan to put a nice old M1907 sling marked "BT&B Co./C" on it. This sling is, itself, a bit of a mystery, as it is clearly GI, but undated...any ideas about the period this was issued? For now, I've put on an old repro that's been hanging around, marked "Hoyt 1917". I've darkened it up with the Pecard's/ hair dryer treatment, so it doesn't look quite so new.
All in all, I'm pretty happy. I'll take some pictures when it's daylight and will post here. The rifle is pretty much as expected, except for the SA bolt (Which may have been replaced in the furor to get rid of all "unsafe" SHT straight bolts) and upper band, and the buttplate and trigger, which are a touch earlier than expected.
So, John, Rick, Fred and others...a penny for your thoughts!
P.S. Here's a nice bonus...my sole example of an M1905 bayonet is also a 1918 RIA, and in equivalent condition. Merry Christmas to me!
John, is the L cartouche stamp about 1/4" big and is it stamped upside down?
jonnyo55
12-19-2013, 06:23
Yes, and yes.
Like this? It's my Rock Island with a RIA 7-18 barrel address, double heat treated receiver, stock has non serif P behind trigger guard, No RI or S stamp at for end tip. Single L stamped on left side of stock, K stamped in cut off recess, smooth butt plate, Stock and hand guard in unused condition,
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss17_zpsa367f337.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss17_zpsa367f337.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss19_zpsda67cafd.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss19_zpsda67cafd.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss22_zps6214f80d.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss22_zps6214f80d.jpg.html)
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jonnyo55
12-20-2013, 01:43
Same location; mine's about a half inch further to the rear. The style, however, is different, and is larger. I cleaned it a bit and the "L" seems upright on mine....VERY faint, though.
jonnyo55
12-20-2013, 01:17
Here are some pics...
BTW...there are no markings in the mag cutoff recess.
jonnyo55
12-20-2013, 01:32
And some more...
Looking at the rifle in a strong light leads me to correct my earlier assessment of the parkerizing color as "black"...it's more of a charcoal color. It does, however, match the color of the 1918 RIA bayonet shown...they could have been made the same day! Now, if I only had an '18 RIA sling...:)
CptEnglehorn
12-20-2013, 05:32
both beautiful rifles.
jonnyo55
12-22-2013, 08:48
I'm a little perplexed as to how some of the parts came to be on this rifle; in particular, the SA upper band along with the bolt body. Originally I liked the idea Rick put forth regarding RIA parts sets being shipped to SA and being assembled there, but the small circle P would seem to argue against that. Likewise, I had thought that perhaps it might be one of the post-WWI rebuilds done by RIA, but these would feature more than one firing proof, no?
I'd love to hear some ideas here...what's the consensus?
Rick the Librarian
12-23-2013, 07:51
Actually, the circled P, (assuming it is a block P and not script) would argue FOR the idea that it was assumed (or maybe overhauled) at Springfield Armory.
jonnyo55
12-23-2013, 08:43
I know that would be the case if the (block) circled "P" were the larger 1/2" diameter, but is a 7/16" circled block "P" also a SA firing proof, or a RIA?
John Beard
12-23-2013, 08:52
I know that would be the case if the (block) circled "P" were the larger 1/2" diameter, but is a 7/16" circled block "P" also a SA firing proof, or a RIA?
Seasons' Greetings!
Does the stock have any marks stamped on the bottom in front of the magazine? Please advise.
Thanks! And Merry Christmas!
J.B.
jonnyo55
12-23-2013, 12:02
No, none of the Remington "hieroglyphics" or any other marks are present forward of the magazine...just "RI" at the forend tip, "10" and a 7/16" circled non-serif gothic "P" behind the TG, and a very faint "L" at the bottom of a dent behind the magazine cutoff. BTW, the magazine cutoff and the safety both feature sans serif lettering, which I believe to be SA only during this period...correct? If so, this would add greater credence to the "parts set assembled at SA" theory.
Merry Christmas to all here, too! The rifle itself was a nice enough present to myself, but discovering that the bayonet in my collection was also a 1918 RIA was a nice stocking stuffer!
jonnyo55
12-31-2013, 11:40
I've cleared up a bit of the "mystery" surrounding this rifle. When looking at my Remington '03 the other day, I noticed that the circle "P" seemed smaller than that on the RIA in question. Dragging out my calipers, I measured the circle on the RIA and found that it measures out to .5"...the SA standard. It's not quite as deep as the other SA stamps I've seen, so I mistakenly assessed it as the smaller RIA/RA version. So it seems that what I've got is a bona fide RIA parts set assembled at SA, just as Rick suspected.
Happy New Year to all...best wishes for a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2014!
Except for my Rock Island not having the RI stamped into the tip of the stock, it seems to be the same as your rifle.
Both rifles are beautiful and in my opinion the profile of the early 03 has just a classical/beautiful look to. Ray
jonnyo55
01-01-2014, 04:59
You know, it's funny...comparing this rifle with my Remington M1903, I'm struck by how much little things like the stock's grasping grooves and the lightening cuts on the rear sight base add to the elegance and grace of the rifle. That and, of course, the finer finish of the earlier rifle make it a much more attractive piece, at least in my eyes...the early '03's are perhaps the most esthetically pleasing service rifles ever made!
You know, it's funny...comparing this rifle with my Remington M1903, I'm struck by how much little things like the stock's grasping grooves and the lightening cuts on the rear sight base add to the elegance and grace of the rifle. That and, of course, the finer finish of the earlier rifle make it a much more attractive piece, at least in my eyes...the early '03's are perhaps the most esthetically pleasing service rifles ever made!
You said it better then I did, especially this part. "the early '03's are perhaps the most esthetically pleasing service rifles ever made!" Ray
Rick the Librarian
01-02-2014, 02:40
You know, it's funny...comparing this rifle with my Remington M1903, I'm struck by how much little things like the stock's grasping grooves and the lightening cuts on the rear sight base add to the elegance and grace of the rifle. That and, of course, the finer finish of the earlier rifle make it a much more attractive piece, at least in my eyes...the early '03's are perhaps the most esthetically pleasing service rifles ever made!
I couldn't have said it better - early M1903s come the closest to being a work of art!!
You know, it's funny...comparing this rifle with my Remington M1903, I'm struck by how much little things like the stock's grasping grooves and the lightening cuts on the rear sight base add to the elegance and grace of the rifle. That and, of course, the finer finish of the earlier rifle make it a much more attractive piece, at least in my eyes...the early '03's are perhaps the most esthetically pleasing service rifles ever made!
I especially like the little scallop machined onto the boss for the magazine selcector pin. That is pure machining art!
When I returned to college as a "non-traditional student" (adult) part of my application for admission at DePaul was to write a description in detail of a cherished item I owned. I fudged it. I had a couple of A3s by then but was still salivating for an '03. I wrote about an '03 and pulled all sorts of stuff into it like the connection the high quality machining invoked as a memory of my machinist grandfather, the connection to my grandfather's and father's generations that fought WWI & WWII, and so on. I really waxed eloquent about the scallop! I knew full well some liberal english department staffer was going to read my essay and have apoplexy, but I knew my writing skill would prevail. I enjoyed that!
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