Army National Match question

[gfguns]

Most Army/Camp Perry National Match pistols I see have a blued barrel including the chamber area visible through the ejection port but some are polished. Was there a standard or was it up to the armorer? I found no mention of this in my reference material ( Bill Jenkins U.S. Military Match and Marksmanship Automatic Pistols Book and various web sites)
Thanks
Greg

[Johnny P]

I have never seen a Springfield Armory NM pistol with what I thought was an original polished chamber. Back when they were $100 or so through the NRA/DCM a friend immediately polished the chamber on his because he thought it looked better.

[ignats]

I would think they came from the factory as completely blued. The polishing was probably done after possibly at the armory but more likely by a subsequent owner who though it looked nicer. Oops, what JP said.

I've seen chamber areas that were jeweled by some "gunsmith" who wanted to show off.

[raymeketa]

Years ago when I shot NRA Pistol, and built my own pistols, NM barrels and bushings always came in the white. With serial numbers. But, that was a long time ago.

[Johnny P]

Those were stock numbers rather than serial numbers. The barrels came in the white because they had to be fitted to the pistol, and were then blued.

[gfguns]

Thank You for the feedback. The NM pistol I am referencing was for sale @ the OGCA meeting this weekend and the chamber was polished. I noticed pictures of National Match pistols in Bill Jenkins book that appeared to have polished chambers but I was unable to find in the data a reference to a standard for the finish on the barrel. Further the barrel is properly numbered to the frame and the barrel part number NM7790313 indicates the pistol was assembled in 1961 or 1962. The slide does not have the last 4 of the frame serial number on the right side and it has a Kensight which would indicate assembly @ RIA 1968. I checked under the firing pin stop which should not be numbered on a 1961 or 1962 but low and behold the slide is numbered and to a different frame so this NM pistol has much bigger issues than a polished chamber that keep it from being all original. Again the books, websites and forum members help me avoid buying a pistol that is not what it is advertised to be. Thanks again for your help

[raymeketa]

You're right Johnny P. Stock numbers. I mis-typed.

Why would they be blued after fitting? That would also blue the chamber and rifleing. And, you'd have to go back and re-polish all of the contact surfaces that were so carefully polished to provide a smooth lock up and feeding. All of the civilian ones that I remember seeing were left in the white. Of course, us poor civilians didn't want a pistol that looked pretty, we wanted one that shot pretty.

[Johnny P]

Not sure which civilian ones you reference, but I have all the Colt commercial match pistols up through the Series 70, and they all have blued barrels with polished chambers. Blueing is no thicker than 0.0001, and no tolerance on the pistol can bel held that close.

[raymeketa]

I don't mean civilian NM pistols. I mean NM pistols that civilians owned and shot.

I think we're talking from two different viewpoints. You're looking at them from a collector's point of view. I'm looking from a shooter's.

I know that traditional blueing or blacking is not thick. But, in competition, the difference between Winner and First Loser can be measured in very small increments. I'll polish all of my working surfaces, thank you. The same for my competition rifles.

[Johnny P]

Not sure I follow all of that, but the Springfield Armory pistols were not built as collector items. They were built for the Camp Perry matches, and the barrels were blued.

The original question was whether The Springfield Armory NM pistols had polished chambers, which they did not. How you polish your working surfaces had nothing to do with the answer.

[raymeketa]

I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning either. I thought the OP was about NM pistols, not necessarily the new generation or those from Springfield Armory, but those manufactured by Colt and then rebuilt to true match standards by service armorers, the AMU, and civilians.

I think we are from different generations.

[Scott Gahimer]

All my military SA and RIA NM pistols have blued barrels that are original. Perhaps some of the examples in Bill's book were owned by shooters such as raymeketa, who chose to alter their pistols in hopes of better performance.

Just because a pistol is shown in a book does not make it original. It may just be the example that was available to show.

[Johnny P]

You are confusing Springfield Armory with Springfield Armory, Inc. Springfield Armory built their last NM pistol in 1967 and closed in 1968, but there is a chronology of changes that identifies which year the pistols were built in. The original question dealt with the NM pistols built at Springfield Armory from 1955 to 1967.

This is a 1961 Springfield Armory built NM pistol.

http://i39.tinypic.com/qp0101.jpg

[raymeketa]

I know the difference between S. A. and S. A. Inc. What I meant was, I didn't see any reference in the OP to S.A. and yet your first post specifically mentions S.A.

What the hell are we argueing about? I've lost track. ;-)

[Johnny P]

I really wasn't arguing; just trying to answer the OP's question.

[Don in SC]

I purchased a 1964 NM pistol last month. The pistol still has it's original shipping box and inner white bag wrapper. Slide is a Drake and the barrel is Colt. Barrel is fully blued and as far as I can tell completely correct.

[gfguns]

I purchased a 1964 NM pistol last month. The pistol still has it's original shipping box and inner white bag wrapper. Slide is a Drake and the barrel is Colt. Barrel is fully blued and as far as I can tell completely correct.
Sounds like a great find Don, got any pictures?

[Don in SC]

Sorry to get back to you so late. I never get email notice when someone up dates a post. I'll take some pictures later and post then. Don
Sounds like a great find Don, got any pictures?

[Don in SC]

These photos are not so great, my camera is not the best but it does the trick most of the time.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu34/donws2/IMG_0723_zps80537393.jpg (http://s631.photobucket.com/user/donws2/media/IMG_0723_zps80537393.jpg.html)

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu34/donws2/IMG_0724_zpsf7616f80.jpg (http://s631.photobucket.com/user/donws2/media/IMG_0724_zpsf7616f80.jpg.html)

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu34/donws2/IMG_0729_zps6efd4387.jpg (http://s631.photobucket.com/user/donws2/media/IMG_0729_zps6efd4387.jpg.html)

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu34/donws2/IMG_0726_zpsad6d7335.jpg (http://s631.photobucket.com/user/donws2/media/IMG_0726_zpsad6d7335.jpg.html)

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu34/donws2/IMG_0730_zps363edb70.jpg (http://s631.photobucket.com/user/donws2/media/IMG_0730_zps363edb70.jpg.html)

[gfguns]

Very nice! Having the box and bag makes it quite a bit more desirable. I have seen many NM pistols like yours with box and wrap that do not mention the serial anywhere on the package unlike the Arsenal reworks that all seem to have the serial# on the packaging. Can't tell in the pictures if the serial# is there. Thanks for the pictures these things are increasing in value at quick pace

[Duane Hansen]

Thanks Johnny and gf for the pictures. Very nice examples.

[gfguns]

I cant take credit for the pictures of the 1964 Drake Slide NM pistol but these are my pictures of a 1966. Just looked at blurry picture #3, definitely not my best effort.

http://i42.tinypic.com/24wul5i.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/23jhohy.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qt93zp.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/27y7ki0.jpg

[Don in SC]

Hi Greg, there is no S/N on the box or inner bag. I for one was interested in this as I would thought that for inventory purpose they would have added that. The was shipped just in time for Camp Perry so perhaps they just box the pistol and mailed it. There are some pencil markings and a felt tip marking on the box. ON the front there is the word "Drake" in pencil on the top corner on the front or label side. On the back the words "Camp Perry" are in pencil. Also on the back of the box the initials L'A.B. are in felt pen. The period between the L and A is quite high for some reason. Anyway the only other thing of note was there were three WWII magazines with the pistol one a CS on bottom of tab and S on top of the same. The other two are R on top of tab. These are not numbered to the pistol which I've read they should be so I'm guessing the correct issued mag's have been lost at some point.

[gfguns]

Don
Looks like they did not bother to serial number the packaging. I have a shipping document with one of my Army NM pistols and that has the pistol serial number but I have no box with that one. I do believe some of these pistols were sold to the public at Camp Perry and some were ordered through the DCM and shipped to the buyer, please chime in if I am mistaken here. Also I too have read that there were numbered mags but I have never seen them, maybe someone watching this thread has some and will provide a picture.

[Duane Hansen]

I cant take credit for the pictures of the 1964 Drake Slide NM pistol but these are my pictures of a 1966. Just looked at blurry picture #3, definitely not my best effort.

http://i42.tinypic.com/24wul5i.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/23jhohy.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qt93zp.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/27y7ki0.jpg

Wow, this one is definately a beauty! Thanks........

[Don in SC]

Greg I've read a book, I may even have it, that had pictures of several NM 1911's. One photo set showed an early pistol about 1961 I think that had three mags that were electro peened with the full number of the pistol on the sides of the mag bodies. I'll see if it's in my stash of books if I can remember where is was I read it. But the point is that as least at one time or at least one pistol had numbered mags. Could be that SA only did it for a certain period. Seems that some things that SA did were written in stone and some were done almost on a whimsy.

[Don in SC]

Greg I had a thought. If the pistols are stacked one on another the end of the box would be all that could be seen. The end tape is missing on both ends of my box. For some reason both ends were opened. but the tape has let go. I would be interested if someone has a box that has all the tape still attacted to the end flaps if there is anything like the S/N wrote on it. Or even any glue residue if there was a inventory label? Could be if there was a label it was removed for the sales records to show whom received the pistol?

[gfguns]

Thanks milgunsguy, nice pair of Army NM pistols there

[m1ashot]

I bought this gun from Don C I hope I get all 3 mags

[m1ashot]

Is there a SRS check on these NM's?

[gfguns]

What gun? Do you have pictures?


I bought this gun from Don C I hope I get all 3 mags

[Johnny P]

Is there a SRS check on these NM's?

If you are talking about the pistols before they went through the NM program, the chances are about the same as any other 1911A1 service pistol. After going through the NM program their history is pretty much known.