ID this scope, from Pacific WWII

[pelago]

winchester a5?
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/512251-2/marinesniper

[emmagee1917]

Looks to be either a Winchester A5 or a Lyman 5A .
Chris

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

It is a modified Winchester A5 from WWI.

jt

[bigskybound]

Very cool.

[pelago]

It is a modified Winchester A5 from WWI.

jt

do you mean "as in left over from WWI?" certainly not a description of current (at the time) usage, which was clearly WWII and somewhere in Pacific, could have been Canal to Oki?

[emmagee1917]

They were made from 1909-ish ( IIRC ) to 1928-ish , so , yes , a WW1 re-run like most of the 1903s the marines hit the beach on the canal with.
Chris

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The scope is from a set modified by Winchester in 1917 for sniper use by the USMC in WWI. They are quite unique, and only about 1,000 were made and issued to Marines of the 13th Regiment with approximately 125 of them issued to the 5th and 6th Regiments before they went to France. They were mothballed after the war except for a few that continued in use in the Banana Wars. Although the scopes still exist, the original sales rifles to which they were attached are as rare as hen's teeth. The original 125 represent the rarest of all the 1903's. Although faked on a grand scale, the fakers (and the buyers) seem to have no knowledge of what an original looked like (distinct identifying marks).

jt

[jgaynor]

The scope is from a set modified by Winchester in 1917 for sniper use by the USMC in WWI. They are quite unique, and only about 1,000 were made and issued to Marines of the 13th Regiment with approximately 125 of them issued to the 5th and 6th Regiments before they went to France. They were mothballed after the war except for a few that continued in use in the Banana Wars. Although the scopes still exist, the original sales rifles to which they were attached are as rare as hen's teeth. The original 125 represent the rarest of all the 1903's. Although faked on a grand scale, the fakers (and the buyers) seem to have no knowledge of what an original looked like (distinct identifying marks).

jt

Excellent post on this very rare variation! Thanks Jim. According to USMC correspondence there were 887 of the Telescopes on hand at Philadelphia in Oct 1940. No mention of rifles however.

Regards,

Jim Gaynor

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

There was an old Marine who stated he was told to strip the rifles down to their barreled receivers. He had difficulty removing the bases, and crushed those receivers. I cannot attest to the accuracy of his story, but I suspect most were decommissioned in some way. Of the original 1200 rifles, very few have surfaced to date. Currently, the fakes seem to significantly outnumber the remaining originals.

jt

[pelago]

great information on a subj soon to go with our WWII veterans, thank you to all that contributed to this
thought it was a cool photo, and looks like it was not staged

[TW56]

Looks like a USMC sight cover on that 1903

[Promo]

Jim, if you don't mind me asking: how then can an original Winchester A5 sniper be identified? Mann-Neider modified scope mount, rear base on the middle of the reciever, .. but are there any other unique features, or should I just compare it with pictures in Brophy's book?

[Johnny in Texas]

Any ideas on what is projecting up from his pack?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Jim, if you don't mind me asking: how then can an original Winchester A5 sniper be identified? Mann-Neider modified scope mount, rear base on the middle of the reciever, .. but are there any other unique features, or should I just compare it with pictures in Brophy's book?

I have never seen a picture of an original A5 sniper rifle showing its ID marks in any of the books I have read or perused. Other than the distinct scope, mounts, and serial number range, they were also stamped with certain additional identifying marks unique to those rifles.

jt

[chuckindenver]

that backs up what i was told., per the bases being high temp soldered on...great info.

[Garden Valley]

I would surmise this photo is from fairly early in the war. His pack is the early type with the full flap to close it. His canteen is the type with the metal cap and his canteen cover is the short flap type. His first aid pouch is the Marine Corps style pouch used early in the war. He also lacks a camouflage cover for his helmet, using instead the army issue large net type cover. My guess is this photo likely was not taken on Guadalcanal but instead during the campaigns on one of the other islands in the Solomons. As to what is sticking up out of his pack, I think that may be an illusion and is foliage on the opposite side that just appears to be projecting from his pack.

[pelago]

pack used early in the war?
Heck that is the same damn thing i got when i reported to 3/3 just prior to going in to DaNang, in March of '65, same canteen also, in fact i still have the canteen it went with me to med evac and i just sort of kept it, along with the rest of my WWII 782 gear

[Garden Valley]

I remember us working with 3/3 along the coast north of Cua Viet in summer 1968. Their radio call sign was FIRE RAIDER. Always envied that. Ours at the time was DALLAS GIRL. Didn't have the same ring as FIRE RAIDER!

The pack you and I had was the standard Marine Corps M1941, but the design changed mid-WWII and the long cover flap was eliminated and the color changed from mustard khaki to OD green. The re-designed pack was a bag type pack where the top was folded over successively until it was closed. A lot of WWII 782 gear was used by the Reserves well into the 1960's, but little made it that long in active duty units. If you had the early WWII pack in 1965 in 3/3 then that is unusual.

[pelago]

my avatar is my photo from 1965 even still had the sateen utilities on, and the suspenders from 1941. photo taken 3rd or 4th night in da nang, if memory serves sometime later that year 5th comm bn was created and off i went to 5th comm,

[Promo]

Jim, I know you good enough that you'd never let us know all of those distinctive markings on a true WWI USMC sniper, but can you give us an example of one of those distinctive markings? Just like that the scope block screws were staked (just a guess/suggestion for an example), etc. Would at least help me to know when I'm close enough to a rifle to then contact you for final verification!

[Garden Valley]

my avatar is my photo from 1965 even still had the sateen utilities on, and the suspenders from 1941. photo taken 3rd or 4th night in da nang, if memory serves sometime later that year 5th comm bn was created and off i went to 5th comm,

I recall when we got new 782 gear in 1966 that the long straps on the suspenders were khaki color and the short ones were OD. What was your MOS? I was 2533. I never used my Morse code skills in Vietnam because I functioned as a 2531. 1/9 was so desperate for radio operators that a lot of 2533's were sent there.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

If you find a sales rifle from a particular year with Mann-Neidner blocks on 7.5" spacing in a certain narrow serial number range with an unusual stamp in a particular place, call me. Then we can get down to the details I haven't mentioned.

I have been looking for years. It is frustrating, but fun.

jt:)

[jmm03]

At 8:45 in this film is a shot of a Marine using a Unertl scoped 03. https://archive.org/details/WiththeMarinesatTarawa Jim

[pelago]

I started out life as a 0311, then got called into Company Co's office and he said "I understand you have a ham radio license!" then he went on and said "why didn't you tell anyone" My answer was Yes I do, and No one asked" He sort of looked at me, read something and then said without looking up, "well guess what, you are now my radio operator" I could do code (still can) at over 30 wpm, knew HF backwards and forwards, could set up and tune a AN/PRC47 in minutes, could build custom HF directional antennas with correct baluns (homemade) in a very short while. It got so bad that people from division Comm would come down and have me demonstate putting a '47 on the air on say 4.001mhz with one of my custom antennas..
Looking back i think i screwed up and let way too much out of the bag
I was a 0311/2531,32,33 and a 8981
i got out after Khe Sahn felt the handwriting was on the wall, but in couple of years i just got pulled back, and re enlisted and stayed in comm field, got sent all over the place to build antennas, some of them are still standing

[Garden Valley]

I was at Khe Sanh for the entire siege. Several units participated in the breakout but I don't recall 3/3 being there. I thought they were on the coast at that time, around Nhi Ha.

[Promo]

Jim, have you ever identified a real Winchester A5 USMC sniper (besides ones which are probably on display in USMC museums/SA museum)? I'll however keep an eye out for those, that's for sure!

[pelago]

I was at Khe Sanh for the entire siege. Several units participated in the breakout but I don't recall 3/3 being there. I thought they were on the coast at that time, around Nhi Ha.

2nd tour, the 0300 field long gone and was pure comm and also picked up 2841 then to 2861 i was assigned to 5th comm bn again and was sent to man hf systems at the airfield. It was unusual to have a tech that was experienced enough to set up and man a hf shot and then fix the damn thing (being a ham radio op i knew enough of worldwide comm on hf to talk to the states every day on 14.300 USB)
the good old MRC-83, but that evolved to a TRC-73 they wanted to set up a TSC-15 van, but that would have been just too much of a target, got nailed on 28 Jan 68 then i was gone

[pmclaine]

, got nailed on 28 Jan 68 then i was gone

Yep, I was hit that day too. Circumcision, I was born the day before. I must have been in shock I cant remember a thing.

Thank you for your service. Your sacrifice will not have been for naught.

[pelago]

Yep, I was hit that day too. Circumcision, I was born the day before. I must have been in shock I cant remember a thing.

Thank you for your service. Your sacrifice will not have been for naught.

28 jan!
went to boot camp on 28 jan 64 (delay on a christmas enlistee deal)
got wounded on 28 jan 66 in da nang
got wounded at khe sahn 28 jan 68

got married on 28 jan 1989

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Jim, have you ever identified a real Winchester A5 USMC sniper (besides ones which are probably on display in USMC museums/SA museum)? I'll however keep an eye out for those, that's for sure!

Yes, two. Neither in a museum.

jt

[Garden Valley]

2nd tour, the 0300 field long gone and was pure comm and also picked up 2841 then to 2861 i was assigned to 5th comm bn again and was sent to man hf systems at the airfield. It was unusual to have a tech that was experienced enough to set up and man a hf shot and then fix the damn thing (being a ham radio op i knew enough of worldwide comm on hf to talk to the states every day on 14.300 USB)
the good old MRC-83, but that evolved to a TRC-73 they wanted to set up a TSC-15 van, but that would have been just too much of a target, got nailed on 28 Jan 68 then i was gone

1/9 got there on 21 Jan 68 and immediately took up a blocking position at the rock quarry. I made it through the entire siege with only a sprained ankle and a lot of close calls.

[pelago]

http://www.abload.de/img/koreansnipersy5oh3.jpg

m1

[pelago]

http://www.offthemall.com/Military/general/Marine%20Sniper%20in%20Korea.jpg

[pelago]

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Korean%20War%20Weapons/M1903A1%20Sniper%20Rifle_files/PunchbowlSniper.jpg

[pelago]

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2748/4409706267_926fc8ce02.jpg

[mmtrains1]

hey mack just joined the site ,,you have a good knowledge of the scopes ..you a marine sniper too ? are you in the USMCL.I am up in the glens falls area "memdet #2 MCL "we have a great rifle team here .just got a springfield set up for vintage sniper competition 1903 with a scope from creedmoor .usmc copy fromww2.nice scope like an old target spot .

[pelago]

hey mack just joined the site ,,you have a good knowledge of the scopes ..you a marine sniper too ? are you in the USMCL.I am up in the glens falls area "memdet #2 MCL "we have a great rifle team here .just got a springfield set up for vintage sniper competition 1903 with a scope from creedmoor .usmc copy fromww2.nice scope like an old target spot .

no, i was a grunt until called into company commanders hooch and he said "how come you never told anyone you are a ham radio operator?" I said "no one asked" He said "guess what, you are now my radio operator!" I said "thanks a lot"
then i learned how to hide behind a prc25, how heavy a prc 47 was, and that no one absolutely no one wanted to carry any of it.
so from that point on was in comm/elec field, they sent me to tech school and i was bored stiff, they were teaching basic electronics, and I got called into the directors office and he said "want to challenge the course" I said "sure" i did and aced it all. made sgt that day. then to tech school then they made me instructor and i taught the guys that were having problems with math, seemed to have a way to make em understand the math in electronics, and that the math was needed and not hard
I mean they were teaching as they had to, but hell i was alicensed ham at 10 years old and could do 30plus words per minute morse code. and i actually did use some code in the corps, strange as it sounds. spent the rest of my time in service operating, fixing, and building radio sites all over the world, some of my antennas i built 35 years ago still in the air and working.
also spent time in the "signal exploitation space on the USS Saipan and 2nd radio bn" snoop and poop stuff with radios,
still a ham operator and have a 85' tower in back yard with five element beam on it and still involved in NavMarCorpsMars. 59 years and counting since first ham ticket,
two expensive hobbies, guns, and amateur radio, and add to that model railroad, wierd huh!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I was at Khe Sanh for the entire siege. Several units participated in the breakout but I don't recall 3/3 being there. I thought they were on the coast at that time, around Nhi Ha.

I salute you Marine! Tough duty for sure. I always wondered what it was like being under constant barrage for weeks on end.

Semper Fi,

jt

[pelago]

28 jan 68
we were getting hit again and i was running as fast as my sorry ass could and the next thing i knew i was up in the air
had no idea how, was rather confused, one second i am running the next i am in the air saying how in the hell did you get up here. did not remember any noise, still dont't, that was all i remembered, woke up three days later on a hosp ship (i think it was uss repose, could be wrong) seems i had run into a 120mm rocket (told later) and went airborne (they did not even consider that solo flight)... made it back to the world on that one
all this because i was pretty good with a radio!!
for Garden Valley
at that time if memory serves i was attached to 5th comm bn right before 7th took over? long time ago and i was kept all over the place working radios
to the folks that made the entire siege, my hat is off to you and if you were here the first case would be on me!! Khe Shan a dirty nasty place, wonder what it looks like now, probably has a lot of ghosts wonder if the matting on runway still there?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Nothing is left judging from Google Earth.

jt