what is the best leather treatment for my m1D cheek pads ?

[razors edge]

I heard pecard was good -any other ideas? Thanks

[Johnny P]

I have been using Pecards for about 30 years and it has always worked for me. Apply it in thin coats and apply multiple coats.

[dave]

I started using it 6-7 year ago, have done all my rifle slings and other stuff. Softens and makes dried leather pliable. Will not cure damage (nothing will) but stops it from getting worse. Rifle sling should never be left tight in parade position.

[razors edge]

Awsome guy's-thank you, I just ordered the classic leather dress..

[dave]

I suspect it may all be the same but I use the Antique Leather Dressing.

[Robert Scott]

Should I not use the Neatsfoot Compound I recently purchased and go w/ the Pecards?
There is another recent post about Pecards on Gun Talk. I have a number of nice WWII slings that are due for treatment. I was going to use Saddle soap and the Neatsfoot.

Don't know what to use now....Thanks

[Col. Colt]

The consensus I hear on most firearms and collectors boards is that the use of saddle soap and neatsfoot oil are relics from a bygone time when we did not know how to care for leather very well - and should be avoided, period. Saddle soap involves water - not good. And neatsfoot just softens the leather, weakening it over time.

I am not a leather expert and claim no expertise myself - but I have read some authoritative collector types who are of this opinion. Please research to your satisfaction before using anything but the Pecards - which generally gets good reviews. Some say Lexol is also harmful. CC

[oldtirediron]

There is a little trick I learned with using Pecard's !! You can rejuvenate even badly dried leather if you put a heavy coat of Pecard's on it --On both sides of the leather like a dry sling- and then put it in a plastic bag-- Seal it and leave it alone for a few weeks-- Then come back and recoat it and do the same thing again !! The plastic bag helps to keep the Pecard's nice and moist-- and helps it penetrate the leather!! Leave it to penetrate the leather on those almost hopeless leather cases where the leather is almost falling apart-- The Pecard's can help but it won't do real miracles but it may save some of the leather items that are going downhill!!

[George in NH]

I offer NO to neats foot oil and Lexol!! I RUINED a damn decent Model of 1912 holster for the M1911 by applying neats foot oil. The oil raised the stampings about out of sight! Wish I had known better but I did not. Found Pecard's some time later and that is the only thing that touches my period leather gear. By the way, applying a "leather" dressing that has a fair amount of water in it is not a good idea either! Saddle soap has a place in cleaning but I have as yet, not used it on a M1904
McClellan saddle that is quite dirty. I may use the saddle soap on a small area of the dirty saddle, let it dry and then apply Pecards. HTH, George in NH

[razors edge]

I talked to pecards the formula is all the same-just changed the names for target sales

[razors edge]

I ordered more pecards stuff today and asked him about the bag technique and he didn't recommend it as his product needs to have air. I am trying the bag trick too right now...I'll check it out. .thx

[jonnyo55]

DO NOT, under any circumstances, use any of the commercially available neatsfoot oil "compounds". They are full of petroleum-based solvents, and will turn your lovely old russet colored leather a dark, dull, fecal brown. PURE neatsfoot oil is better, but is no match for Pecard's, and is difficult to find. A trick I use to enhance the absorption of Pecard's is to apply it very liberally, then heat the item (carefully!) with a hairdryer. You can watch the stuff melt into the leather!

[pickax]

I have been a Pecard user for many years until I found this thread pinned here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/24966-preserving-leather/
Lots of good reading on the subject.

[razors edge]

wow

[Griff Murphey]

Oops duplicate

[Griff Murphey]

I had good results with neatsfoot on a very stiff new repro Stg-44 repro sling for my .22 one. Two coats and it almost looks and feels like an original.

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

pickax:

Curious to know if you have had bad results in using Pecards on any of your leather equipment? I am aware of what has been said about Pecards and the "Pecards Bloom". What I have found out is that some old leather articles experience the "Pecard Bloom" due to the various oils/conditioners that have been applied in the past. What happens is, various conditioners have different waxes in their formula, and over time (years), the waxes become dead/dry. Also some of the original waxes the tannery stuffed the various leathers with, tend to break down and dry out over time. The Pecards is very fluid in this respect, it is not damaging, but is forcing/floating the old dead/dry wax and impurities from the leather, in essence pushing it to the surface. If you experience this effect, you can rub this bloom between your fingers and it tends to have a waxy feel to it, almost like talcum powder, but a little more tacky. In my experience, Pecards doesn't damage the leather, but is replacing old dead nutrients. There is nothing that can be done to restore old dried out leather, i.e. severe cracking, red rot, sloughing of the epidermis (top layer of the grain). All you can do is to try and delay the process. I see a lot of comments about neatsfoot oil, but even pure neatsfoot oil made today is not the neatsfoot oil of old, as today it is made from cold pressed hog lard, not from the boiled hooves and shin bones of cattle and oxen as it was 50-60 years ago and before.

I used neatsfoot oil years ago until I was educated to this fact. If you use neatsfoot oil, you are inviting fungus and mold spores plenty of food which causes the mold and mildew to readily grow on the leather. Many say to stay away from leather care products which have petroleum products in their ingredients, but the petroleum products used are ph balanced and are not harmful to leather. I have heard the stories about mineral oil rotting thread, not true, you can soak a spool of linen thread in mineral oil or oils containing mineral oil for years, and still sew with it. All it does is provide a good lubricant for the sewing machine, not broke threads, etc. What I have found is, if the leather article is of some age, such as old west gear or military leather items, chances are the thread has already experienced dry rot and any oil will loosen up the fibers and allow it to deteriorate more rapidly by allowing the remaining fibers to separate, since the thread has already been damaged through rot.

If I can locate my file on leather care products, I'll post it. It was compiled by Dan Preston, Phd, of the Harness Shop News. He and his staff evaluated 22 leather care products and it gives the results of each as to treatment of leather, old and new. He allowed me to include it in a hand out I passed out at one of the GCA Conventions around 2003-2005, where I gave a talk about the subject. My cover sheet covered the descriptive data of the M1907 Sling and Care and Cleaning of Military Leather Equipment.

Semper Fi

Richard L. Turner
GySgt USMC Ret


I have been a Pecard user for many years until I found this thread pinned here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/24966-preserving-leather/
Lots of good reading on the subject.

[Johnny P]

Reading from the link given above, are we to believe that Pecards invented verdigris. What a bunch of crap. Verdigris is formed on copper and brass on leather goods by the reaction of the copper to the acid in the leather.

I started out using several different leather preservatives, and I have 1907 slings that I treated with Mink Oil 35 years ago that still form a white substance on the surface. It wipes off easily, but I have found no way to kill it. After the Mink Oil I first tried Pecards, and have yet to find anything better. I have Model 1916 holsters that are almost 100 years old that have been treated with Pecards for the last 30 years and still have their original color.

The old adage that "if a little will do a little good, a lot will do a lot of good" doesn't apply to Pecards. Apply it in very thin even coats and let it work at room temperature rather than trying to speed up the process by using artificial heat, or putting it in the sunlight.

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Johnny P:

You are correct on the verdigris. On leather, verdigris will appear in any area copper and brass touch, even on a piece of virgin tanned leather or goods that has never received an oil or dressing treatment. The tannic acid, which remains in leather through the tanning process, will react to any metal which has a copper content. About 20+ years ago I found out the hard way about nickle silver, didn't remember it is a copper alloy. I got a hold of some 3/16" nickle silver spots that had a nice cut starburst design, so I made a money belt/cartridge belt and a matching knife scabbard. Put about 100+ spots on the belt and it is a real pain to try and keep the verdigris from growing.

When I had trouble getting "Bearguard" leather dressing about 20-22 years ago, I approached Pecards to see if they could duplicate or come close to the dressing we had been using. (I had been using Pecards for several years prior, but found it was too fluid for my use on newly produced leather equipment). They duplicated the dressing as close as they could, giving it the same consistency as the dressing we were previously using, which would be about 5 to 7 times stiffer or firmer than Pecards. What this does is prevent the dressing from penetrating too deep too quick, especially useful in not promoting stretch. and for match slings that is a good thing. As to leather darkening, right again, Pecards is one of the only dressings that darken leather the least.

As to use on leather cheek pads, we will be using the dressing on the cheek pads we are beginning to turn out. We haven't listed them yet on our site as I am trying to build a few here and there in order to build up stock. I was fortunate to be able to acquire an original mold and cutting dies that were used from the late 1950s to turn out cheek pads for the M1C/M1D rifles. The hardest thing was finding the correct wool gray felt as was used in the originals. A few months ago after searching long and hard, we found a U.S. manufacturer for the felt.

I have been well pleased with Pecards over the years, and the military dressing they make for us is used everyday here at the shop.

Semper Fi

Richard

[pickax]

Richard
Thanks for your reply and expertise. I have experienced the Pecard "bloom" annually with some of my leather items. But they are stored in extreme conditions for the last few years, stored in my Fla. home through the summer with A/C temp set at 90 degrees!

I also collect vintage archery gear and have a number of quivers and grips treated as well as holsters and slings. One thing very noticable, is the bloom is much heavier on leather previously treated before me with oils and who knows what. Mainly 100 year old slings. Pecard treated only items usually have just the light dusting you describe. It all wipes off with no noticable damage.

I find the pecards great still for "working leather" like your sling, and modern holsters. With minimal darkening and stretching.

My main concern was learning of the petroleum products in Pecards beeswax formula. I feel better now you state it is PH neutral. But for "display only" items, I am inclined to use pure lanolin for preservation.

Like many forum threads, there are mistaken opinions given( verdigree), in the linked thread. But I found it useful overall. This thread has been useful too, thanks to all.
Brad

[Johnny P]

My dad thought there was nothing better than Neetsfoot Oil, and used it on all his leather. His boots got a regular coat of the Neatsfoot, and sure enough it made them soft and somewhat waterproof, but he never used a pair of boots over four or five years. In the mid 1970's I gave him a Randall knife with his name etched on the blade. The first thing he did was to treat the scabbard in Neatsfoot Oil. Some 40 years later the knife sheath is a dark color, and is deteriorating, especially around the snap where the leather is flexed. I would not use Neatsfoot Oil on any type of leather.