View Full Version : USMC Sniper project...
I'm thinking of starting a reproduction sniper build, and would appreciate any tips about what I should be on the lookout for. Any characteristics or places to look would be much appreciated. If I'm not mistaken, there is a certain range of serial numbers that were used- but I'm not sure what that range is.
Thanks,
Tim:icon_salut:
Also to clarify- I am going to do this slowly, and would like to find an M1941 if possible. I also realize these rifles are very rare and not often on the market, and when they are they bring a premium a college kid using the GI Bill can't often foot the bill for. So, if saving the purchase of the real deal for later on down the road is what I need to do, thats fine...
In the mean time, I'm thinking of browsing through already sporterized 1903s in the hopes of finding one as a good starting point. I'm assuming the best idea would be to try to find an SA made in the middle-late 30s, and then go with the reproduction Unertl 8x. I'm interested in doing this for matches (I live half an hour from Camp Perry), and just a good, fun rifle to have to shoot.
pmclaine
12-05-2013, 06:36
Creedmoor Sports sells built M1941 snipers using the Repro 8X check them out to get an idea of what they have done and pricing.
Former0302
12-05-2013, 08:07
Chuck from Denver on this forum did the work modifying the front hand guard and mounting the scope to the rifle for me. He does exceptional work.
Here's what I found out doing mine...verifiable M1903/1941 USMC snipers are as rare as hen's teeth. If you found one, you'd spend a king's ransom and you wouldn't want to shoot it in a match. You'll spend a small fortune trying to even replicate one with "authentic" parts (like finding a National Match 1903 in the correct serial number range to modify and a authentic 8X USMC Sniper marked Unertl scope).
I really just wanted an accurate faux rifle that closely simulated the 1941 in order to compete in the vintage sniper competitions. I decided that some concessions were in order to meet that goal without having to get a home equity line of credit and cause a divorce. YMMV, but given you're a young guy, you may want to consider the same. In the end, it came out at about the same amount it would cost me to buy a Creedmoor rifle that had the scope overhaul / tune up service done to it...and I have a few more bells and whistles. For what it's worth, here's the concessions I decided to make
- I too wanted a real Unertl, but realized that USMC Sniper marked ones run in the several thousands and wouldn't be financially possible. Every once in a while you'll hear a story of a guy who finds one at an estate auction or in some pawn shop where the owner is ignorant of what he has...but that's lottery ticket odds of happening. I looked for a civilian version of the same scope (1 1/4'' target scope in 8X). They are rare too since a lot of folks are doing reproduction rifles...but still possible to find, and definitely more affordable. Start looking on ebay. In the end, I settled for a 1'' target scope in 8X. Slightly shorter, this is the scope that the Creedmoor rifle has a replica of mounted on it. It is also authorized for use in the vintage sniper matches. Cost me $1000. You may find one for less. Be careful, as there are a lot of different varieties of Unertl scopes and some not so scrupulous ebay sellers that mis-represent their stuff. Not all Unertl scopes are authorized for the CMP matches, even if they are in 8X. There are also some other scope manufacturers that are authorized (Lyman for one I believe) so that may open up your search criteria...check CMP rules.
- Instead of destroying a national match 1903 which would be a crime (figuratively speaking of course)...I looked for a standard 1903 with a C stock. Gunbroker find for $800. It was a CMP rifle that was arsenal refinished at some point, and the barrel was brand new USGI. Shoots around 1 MOA from a bench with hand loads. Good enough.
- Scope mounting blocks, went with case hardened repro's from Steve Earle http://www.steveearleproducts.com/scopeblocks.html
- As stated before, Chuck in Denver modified the hand guard, blued and serial etched the bolt for a taste of authenticity, mounted the scope and did a general cosmolene removal and clean up of the stock and rifle.
- Bought a national match heavy checkered butt plate with hinged door for a bit more authenticity.
Here's a link to the experience...the good the bad and the ugly of it.
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-vintage-sniper-rifles/150606-another-m1903a1-usmc-sniper-look-alike-begins.html
Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
-
Thanks for the reply, sir! I agree that it is a crime to ruin a good rifle for a project like this, so I will most likely just hope to find a suitable late 30s receiver that has already been sporterized.
Last night I found a sporterized, early 1938 SA receiver, and I think I might go for it... it already has been D & T, in what appears to be the appropriate place over the chamber. I requested more pictures, so I should know more about it shortly.
Just saw your pics of the build, very nice. if chuckindenver is still doing this line of work, I will definitely ship my build to him when the time is right!
I currently have a barrel that I think will be appropriate. It is a 1943 Sedgley USMC that is in very good condition, that has the plumbers table marks on it... not sure if it was actually on a USMC rifle or not, or if any late Sedgleys were installed- but the marks look to be the real deal. Either way, it should make a good start as it wasn't one of the bent ones...
I'm thinking of starting a reproduction sniper build, and would appreciate any tips about what I should be on the lookout for. Any characteristics or places to look would be much appreciated. If I'm not mistaken, there is a certain range of serial numbers that were used- but I'm not sure what that range is.
Thanks,
Tim:icon_salut:
Tim, your project sounds Very interesting and I hope to see some pictures of your rifle in the near future!
Jim in Salt Lake
12-05-2013, 02:39
Tim, I put mine together about 2 years ago and had similar experiences to many others. I'd just pass along a few other things to consider. I used the Leatherwood Malcomb USMC scope, nicknamed the "Chinertl." I used the blocks that came with it and they've worked fine. However, I got a set of the Steve Earle blocks since then but can't use them as the rear block has different hole spacing than the Malcomb blocks. If you're looking at a sportered rifle that's already been drilled, verify the holes will work with whatever blocks you're using. You won't be able to mix the Steve Earle and Malcomb blocks, the Earle blocks are significantly taller. BTW, the Earle 1903 blocks come with a beautiful color case hardening, that's why I wanted to use them, purely for the looks. If I was starting out again, I'd use them. I started with a sportered rifle, too. Mine was drilled for a side mounted scope so my receiver ring was virgin and I didn't have to worry about matching anything. The only other thing done to the rifle was the stock was cut short and a recoil pad installed. This saved me a bunch of money as the rifle had all the military metal which I reused on a new CMP stock. I got lucky on the new stock and it didn't take much work to fit it. However, these are made by Boyds and I've had less than stellar results with other Boyds stocks I've used. If you can find a surplus C stock that has tight receiver bedding, so much the better. A stock that beds loose isn't good because the CMP rules don't let you shim or glass bed the action.
I looked for several months for a CMP legal scope but came up dry. The old scopes were being snapped up by other folks doing the same thing and the ones that weren't were priced too high. I count myself lucky to find my rifle ($300 with a side mounted Weaver 330) but not lucky enough to find a reasonable deal on the scope. Other folks have and you might as well, I just wasn't that fortunate.
I heartily second the recommendation to have Chuck mount your blocks. My most common problem was that the front block would loosen up after repeated firing. I had mine silver soldered on the barrel. Chuck does this now or something like it, he does have his secrets! Send it to him and do whatever he tells you is needed and you'll be happy. He was a pleasure to work with and I'll send him mine back when I shoot the barrel out. When I got mine back from him, I centered the windage adjustment in the ring and took it out to shoot. I think my mechanical zero on a windless day is just a minute or two off the center, he does amazing work. Chuck also sold me one of his A4orgery bolts. While not true to the USMC heritage, it replaced a straight handled SHT bolt that I wasn't comfortable shooting and gives me plenty of scope clearance. I would also recommend that you talk to Chuck before you buy that sportered rifle and get his advice if anything can be done if the holes don't match up with the blocks. Steve Earle does sell blocks with no holes so they could be drilled to match.
This is my favorite rifle to shoot, they are an absolute gas. Besides CMP Vintage Sniper matches, I also use it for NRA midrange (300, 500, 600 yards). I want to take it out to the long range matches we have in Wendover and shoot it at 1000 yards.
Jim in Salt Lake
12-05-2013, 02:39
Deleted, double post, sorry.
Jim, so the Leatherwood is CMP legal?
Thanks for the advice as well. I will talk your advice and use the Earle blocks. I do have a basic 1903 question, however... I have found a few sporterized 1903s with receivers that are promising that have been set up to shoot a different caliber. I'm assuming this is done with just a rebarrel and bolt modification, and the rest will be good to go. Is that correct?
CptEnglehorn
12-05-2013, 07:40
I would also recommend chuck in denver, it might cost more than going for one of the other commercial companies builds, but you will be satisfied, I have one of his builds and its rediculously accurate and looks damn good to, I plan to buy more of his clones and recommend anyone who wants one to him. Heres mine
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?35478-1903-Sniper-Clone
Former0302
12-06-2013, 08:45
Jim, so the Leatherwood is CMP legal?
Yes, the Leatherwood "Chinertl" is CMP legal, so you can compete in the vintage sniper events.
It actually isn't a replica of the scope the USMC used (which was the 1 1/4'' Unertl target scope), it's a copy of the 1" target scope. Why they didn't use the right one to copy...who knows. I have the Unertl 1" target scope on my rifle if you want to see pics. It's a couple of inches shorter and the adjustment rings on the objective bell are a little different. But, it's CMP legal and is very close to the original.
I've heard that the general feedback on the Leatherwood scopes is that the glass is actually really clear. The mounting blocks and mounting block screws are made from inferior metal and loosen quickly. I think Creedmore offers a service where they upgrade some of the problems the scope was having for $80 or so...worth doing if you go this route I think.
The Steve Earl mounting blocks are the way to go. Also, Chuck will tell you to get the blocks for the Lyman scopes. They sit a tad higher than the Unertl blocks. This is good, as one of the issues with the Unertl / m1903 set up is that when the scope is adjusted for closer ranges, the bolt handle can hit the scope body. On some original M1903A1's they shaved the bolt body to accommodate this, and you'll see many clones go that route too. The little bit of extra clearance from the Lyman blocks resolves this issue. You're going to be dealing with stock weld issues anyway, regardless of the blocks used, so I figured a hair higher for less trouble was worth it.
Chuck also silver soldered mine. While technically not correct (in that the USMC armorers didn't originally do that), since my rifle was a "close proximity clone" and I was making concessions anyway...I went with improvements to the original formula rather than being a stickler for the historical accuracy of the build process.
CMP sells stocks for $165 plus s&h, and Chuck is more than up to the task of inletting it if it needs it. It won't have the "character" associated with a USGI stock, but it'll look really nice with several layers of BLO rubbed in. So, the sportarized route with a new stock might be a good way to go if you can pick it up on the cheap. Otherwise, keep an eye on the gun boards for a 1903 with a C stock, they're out there.
Thanks for your service BTW...good luck in school. Any thoughts of picking up a commission?
Good deal, thanks again for all the info, I have a very solid plan for what to do. I'm hoping to have this project completed by February. There is a particular gun show here in Ohio where I have had very good luck finding 1903 parts that are randomly strewn in bulk boxes, as well as barrels. I'm going to keep my eyes open for shaved bolts, and possibly a NM butt plate. I've found some pretty rare, original items there already (genuine USMC front sight hood, and a USMC stippled butt plate) so maybe I will get lucky again.
Right before I EAS'd I injured my leg significantly (non combat), which keeps me from being able to return to fleet time with the infantry, which is pretty much the only thing I'd be interested in doing. I graduate in May, and at current it appears grad school is the most likely next step.
Jim in Salt Lake
12-06-2013, 02:23
Jim, so the Leatherwood is CMP legal?
Thanks for the advice as well. I will talk your advice and use the Earle blocks. I do have a basic 1903 question, however... I have found a few sporterized 1903s with receivers that are promising that have been set up to shoot a different caliber. I'm assuming this is done with just a rebarrel and bolt modification, and the rest will be good to go. Is that correct?
As Former says, the Chinertl is CMP legal. Check out the CMP rule book here: http://odcmp.com/Competitions/CMPGamesRules.pdf I didn't build mine as a strict historical reproduction but as a rifle that meets the rules. On the height of the blocks, the Leatherwood blocks are lower than Steve Earle's. That being said, with my original straight handle SHT bolt and the scope adjusted as low as it would go, my bolt handle cleared the scope. I bought the A4orgery bolt from Chuck because I didn't feel comfortable shooting as much as I do with a SHT bolt. I built the rifle to shoot it, not to hang on the wall. I actually like the scope height with the lower blocks. I left my CMP stock fat (mine is fat in all dimensions, including height) and I get a good cheek weld with it. The CMP stocks are very pretty, too. As is the color case hardening on the Earle blocks, they look pretty cool. You have a great winter project, have fun with it!
As far as a rifle chambered in something else, if the caliber has a similar or same cartridge head size, the bolt probably wasn't modified. One of the most common caliber conversions is .35 Whelan, which is a .30-06 necked up. Look at the bolt and compare it to another if necessary to make sure it wasn't ground on. Or better yet, talk to Chuck.
Former0302, "It actually isn't a replica of the scope the USMC used (which was the 1 1/4'' Unertl target scope), it's a copy of the 1" target scope. Why they didn't use the right one to copy...who knows. I have the Unertl 1" target scope on my rifle if you want to see pics. It's a couple of inches shorter and the adjustment rings on the objective bell are a little different. But, it's CMP legal and is very close to the original".
This statement rarely ever is mentioned when discussing the Chinese version that Hi-Lux copied the wrong Unertl scope model. I also think Hi-Lux copied a pair of Lyman micrometer mounts when you look at the Chinese Hi-Lux version. They don't look like any of the variations of micrometer mounts that Unertl manufactured but do have some resemblance to Lyman mounts.
Greg Ficklin
12-07-2013, 07:44
I'm going through this with a friend that is bent on having a USMC sniper tribute for the CMP VS matches. He borrowed a rifle last year for the Eastern Games and he and his pal came in 6th overall in the team standings. He's hooked bad, and making unwise decisions like wanting to drill into a Remington 1903 that he picked up at a pawn shop, and biting hard on an 8X scope on Ebay that he finally won at $1875. There are always sporters that have already been molested to use for these tribute rifles. Drilling into any 1903 today is just foolishness. Even the A3's should be left alone because there are so many out there that have been sporterized. There is nothing wrong with the CMP stock sets despite some things you hear. 1903 stocks are notorious for cracking even the USGI stocks. The same is true for the complaints of the Leatherwood Malcomb "Chinertl". I have one on my CMP VS tribute, and took a Unertl off to use it. Even Unertl users back in the day had problems with the mounts coming loose, and not having them seated correctly. That's why they developed the POSA mount. Leatherwood did copy the Lyman mounts all the way down to the screw inside the thumb nut. This has to be tightened after the thumb nut is properly seated in the standard base scallop to lock the thumb nut. People that have problems with the mounting of the Malcomb need to know the difference in the Lyman system, and Unertl. Put a new inner screw in place of the original one and get it tight after the thumb nut is properly secure, and it will not loosen.
If you find a drilled and tapped 1903 and the spacing is different from standard Steve Earl will custom make blocks to fit your hole spacing.
I fought the chinertl mounts for two years and after two years of diligent searching finally scored a set of original Unertls on eBay for less than $300.
The Malcolm rings SUCK! They have 1.5moa of backlash between click engagements and when they do engage the clicker it is too fine and too soft to reliably count.
My final rifle is goofy accurate for a battle rifle.
Started with a bubba'd rifle at a gunshow for $375. Stock was still intact.
1919 receiver. Prewar "C" stock. Early handguard with the windage knob cut out and a previously modified NS bolt.
Found a fine deep checkered NOS buttplate. (For an M1922 I think?)
I now only need to blacken the bolt. It is polished at the moment.
I've been browsing through 1903s that have already been sporterized, and when it comes for my attempt to recreate an authentic look I have a question... the USMC M1941 sniper rifles were national match rifles without Hatcher Holes, correct?
I've been browsing through 1903s that have already been sporterized, and when it comes for my attempt to recreate an authentic look I have a question... the USMC M1941 sniper rifles were national match rifles without Hatcher Holes, correct?
FWIW this link will take you to a list of USMC sniper rifle attributes:
http://olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_rifle_m1941usmc.php
chuckindenver
12-12-2013, 08:12
couple of things on that list i dont agree with..
the C stock was used on most, but not all.
bolts were blackened, but not blued. some may look blued.. a pickling chem was used to darken plished bolts.
have yet to see a genuine with a coarse checkered buttplate, have seen many smooth and fine checkered plates on real rifles, both plates were stippled.
shooting a NM type buttplate without a shooting coat with leather shoulder pad will result in a nasty rasberry..
though the barrels were star gauged measured, most had no marking at the muzzle.
have also seen tar on the rear sight base, as well as the front sight base, front and rear scope bases were later high temp soldered as well as screwed in place, this was one of the weak points of the set up, and why the iron sights were left so they could still be used if the scope set up failed in the field, all had the guard screws staked in place.
all slings had the keepers or hooks blackened, stocks were boned, or had the grain closed, most stampings were gone or rubbed off during this.
a rifle with sharp markings would be suspect.
all genuine rifles iv looked at, have had a punch mark ahead of the front scope base, after the high temp solder was done.
CV parts were not used on all rifles, only if needed or replacements after 1937.
the last genuine rifle iv seen and held, had an early WW1 type trigger, and a J5 bolt serialed just ahead of the safety lug.
rifle had been through a rebuild, but still retained its original parts..sans a sling,
also noticed that on some combat pics iv seen, that the stacking swivel is removed.
Chuck I am not crazy about the list either. For one thing the list of potential serial numbers includes almost 600,000 rifles. How helpful is that?
And you are right the directive called for Pistol grip stocks "if available". There is at least one combat photo of a sniper with a rifle equipped with a GG type "S" stock. Did it come that way from stateside or was it a filed replacement? Who knows?
Regards,
Jim
Chuck, I agree to some points of your description, but not all. Especially when it comes to blued or blackened bolts. Regarding the bluttplates, since most were made of NM rifles they originally did come with the coarse checkered buttplate. And if you tried, the coarse checkered buttplate has a slightly different curve and dimensions than a fine checkered one. This also becomes visible when trying to fit these to a stock which was originally issued with another buttplate.
Since these are USMC rifles, they were originally built in a specific manner. In the field or because of damages parts could be replaced. Also remember the long issue time, they were used in Korea, and of course some got in an overhaul process.
Former0302
12-13-2013, 07:41
Yeah...the NM heavy checkered buttplate is basically a meat tenderizer...
chuckindenver
12-19-2013, 08:54
most corse plates were tossed by the end user if on the rifle when issued, ALL bolts were blackened when issued...
why would any sniper want a brite bolt to give him away?? nothing on the rifle was pretty..if its pretty, someone other then the USMC made it that way.
bolt body was pickled if not already blackened..if it had a polished bolt, it was dulled to a dark ash grey. serial bolts iv observed were done so that if the bolt handle was up, and a scope installed, the serial could be seen. usually under the extractor.
shoot a 1903 with a corse checkered buttplate in a shirt sleeve just once...youll understand why.
and no...they didnt use JUST NM rifles.. all the guidelines for this rifle was...DHT action...that was it...
from 900,000 and up.
understand that the Sniper rifle was one of the most personal modified rifles issued for the end user, stocks, bolts, scopes, buttplates ect, were usually changed for the shooter to fit him. most snipers were cream of the crop, and very savey on how to shoot, and how the rifle worked... that saying,..feer the man with only one rifle...chances are he knows it very well.
after these weapons were turned back in, most were rebuilt or destroyed, they saw hard use. only a handful were truly sold as surplus.
id say more WW1 sniper rifles with the side holes plugged found themselvs back in service then the 1903A1s. do to hard service, use, and how the holes were drilled.
scopes removed, rifles taken down, and set for scrap, id say more scopes were smuggled back then any complete rifles.
just based on my observations on legit rifles.
and thats not very many, less then a handfull in private hands, and a few in museums that are real.
lots and lots of replicas....even more in the past couple years.
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