Closing in on an M1903 inventory list for the USS North Carolina

[Shooter5]

An inquiry to the staff aboard the Showboat has yielded some initial findings: unfortunately no inventory list by serial number for the M1903s has turned up as of yet but they remain hopeful. Some other small arms by serial number is posted. However, some of the archive is available online so if anyone has some time, feel free to peruse the collection and maybe someone can find the M1903 inventory. (An inventory for the M1911A1s is posted in the pistol section; Archive link immediately below)

http://battleshipnc.pastperfect-online.com/31022cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DC662F14-F70C-4FE1-BF3C-986200832513;type=301

Research thus far:
"Custody Record Cards –
30 cal. Model 1903 rifles, received 350 on 5/16/1941 – no serial numbers in this booklet
45 cal. Model 1911 Colt automatic pistols, received 200 on 5/16/1941

Also
Dotters rifle, .30 caliber M-1903 (35) but no serial numbers
.45 cal. Thompson submachine guns (6) w/serial numbers
.22 cal. Colt pistols (6) w/serial numbers
Browning Automatic model 1919 A4 machine guns (2) w/serial numbers & tripod mounts
Very, Mk III, RA Co., Pistols (6) w/serial numbers
.30 Browning automatic rifles model 1918 (30) w/serial numbers
.45 cal. Line throwing rifles (6) w/serial numbers
.22 cal. Model 1922 target rifles (9) w/serial numbers
Shotguns, 14 720 gauge 26” barrel (5 shot) w/serial numbers (12)
Shotgun, 12 gauge, Stevens, M-620, 28” BB1, sporting type (1)
Shotgun, 12 gauge (3) w/serial numbers

Will have to investigate other files for references to the serial numbers for the .30 caliber rifles but this is a start!"

Much thanks to the staff of the battleship for their efforts to research this request. Please cite this information as “Courtesy Battleship NORTH CAROLINA."

Mary Ames Booker
Curator
Battleship NORTH CAROLINA
curator@battleshipnc.com
mary.booker@ncdcr.gov
910-251-5797 ext. 3026
E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law "NCGS.Ch.132" and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official.

http://www.battleshipnc.com/

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[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The battleship North Carolina is just down the road from my house. Cool place to spend the day.

Your link doesn't work.

jt

[Shooter5]

(Link fixed) Been aboard many times whenever the chance presents, its a great day all around! Try out some of the specialty tours: the ship is currently being renovated to allow for overnight stays such as Scouts. Some ships such as the USS Alabama already have a program for it
(http://www.ussalabama.com/overnt_adv.php)

http://www.battleshipnc.com/Programs/BehindtheHatch

http://www.battleshipnc.com/Programs/FirepowerProgram

http://www.battleshipnc.com/Programs/HiddenBattleship

http://www.battleshipnc.com/Programs/PowerPlantProgram

http://www.battleshipnc.com/Programs/ShowboatSystemsDesign

http://www.battleshipnc.com/Programs/Education

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Do they allow one to peruse the archives in person?

jt

[Shooter5]

Do they allow one to peruse the archives in person?

jt
Good question; call Ms Booker!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Good question; call Ms Booker!

I will do exactly that. I have lots of free time, and I did research for a living. I can look at old boring records all day long. The boat is a 30 minute drive from my home.

jt

[TW56]

Thanks for posting the documents.

[Mike D]

I'm on board the USS Yorktown right now. I'm in a middle bunk with barely enough room to type this on my phone. Oh yeah, 50 rambunctious Boy Scouts that were supposed to be asleep ten minutes ago. I'll have to ask about any armory records tomorrow.

Mike

[Shooter5]

I'm on board the USS Yorktown right now. I'm in a middle bunk with barely enough room to type this on my phone. Oh yeah, 50 rambunctious Boy Scouts that were supposed to be asleep ten minutes ago. I'll have to ask about any armory records tomorrow.

Mike
Ha! Sounds like lotsa fun! Was there a few months ago but forgot to ask. IIRC, they do have an armory display belowdecks with M1 Garands and some 1911s. Look for a Marine guard mannequin. See if you can get those serial numbers.

http://www.patriotspoint.org/overnight_camping/

USS Midway has similar programs.

http://www.midway.org/overnight

Other ships with overnight programs:

http://www.hnsa.org/edprog.htm

[Rick the Librarian]

Now, if you ever find a small arms list for the USS Washington, BB56 ... :D

One interesting thing - their Marine detachment (on the Washington) used M1s. There are pictures of King George VI inspecting the Washington's Marines and they are clearly using M1s.

[Shooter5]

Now, if you ever find a small arms list for the USS Washington, BB56 ... :D

One interesting thing - their Marine detachment (on the Washington) used M1s. There are pictures of King George VI inspecting the Washington's Marines and they are clearly using M1s.
That possibility/likelihood was mentioned to the curator; at some point the USMC detachment aboard the USS NC probably was issued M1s - the Navy probably just kept using the M1903. The staff may not have the time to track down all the records pertaining to the small arms but...Marine A5 Sniper is apparently volunteering to go aboard soon: here's the plan - wait till he gets permission to research the archives and then lock the door behind him until he comes out with all the inventory lists. Sliced bread is thin enough to slide under the the door plus a small water hose could be snaked underneath. On second thought; It might be better to just make a cutout for a pet door so he can slide the bucket in & out...

[rebound]

that's what he should get for calling it a boat......

[Rick the Librarian]

That possibility/likelihood was mentioned to the curator; at some point the USMC detachment aboard the USS NC probably was issued M1s - the Navy probably just kept using the M1903. The staff may not have the time to track down all the records pertaining to the small arms but...Marine A5 Sniper is apparently volunteering to go aboard soon: here's the plan - wait till he gets permission to research the archives and then lock the door behind him until he comes out with all the inventory lists. Sliced bread is thin enough to slide under the the door plus a small water hose could be snaked underneath. On second thought; It might be better to just make a cutout for a pet door so he can slide the bucket in & out...

Makes sense to me! :D Someone suggested on one of the other sites that the Marine detachments may have used M1s (which is interesting, given the fact that the Marines on Guadalcanal were still using M1903s during this same period) and those small arms for use by the ship's naval landing parties (had they been needed) would have been M1903s.

[Shooter5]

There is a USMC section display belowdecks fore and IIRC it has some pictures of occupation detachment that briefly went ashore in September 1945. Perhaps Marine A5 can look next time he visits to check if there are any Marines with M1s in the display pictures? Page 43 in the book "Battleship North Carolina" by CPT Ben Blee, 2cd Edition, ISBN 0-9608538-2-0, shows USMC burial detail and their rifles could be M1s - someone with better skills could distinguish.
This section has a low-resolution pic of the landing force.

http://seastories.battleshipnc.com/marines/

Search "Japan Landing Party"

http://battleshipnc.pastperfect-online.com/31022cgi/mweb.exe?request=keyword;keyword=japan%20landing%2 0party;dtype=i

[Rick the Librarian]

This picture definitely has crewmen carrying M1903s.

http://battleshipnc.pastperfect-online.com/31022images/002/1991.033.0029.JPG

[Shooter5]

Yes, true. Most of the pics for the Landing Force that are available online are easily recognized as 1903s. However, many of those personnel appear to be Navy due to uniform of dungarees. The pic with the 100 or so Marines on the fantail doesn't give enough resolution - though, several 1919 belt fed machine guns can be recognized in the lower right.
Nearly all of the burial party pictures also show what is easily distinguishable 1903s…except for the page 43 picture in above mentioned book. Will see if it can be located and downloaded.
It would seem that with an educated guess is that by mid to late war (say, 1943-44 time frame, most likely by 1945) all or nearly all Marine detachments aboard a principal battleship would have had M1 Garands. It would be astonishing to find a commander complacent enough to settle for a bolt action when a proven semi-auto had demonstrated its worth in numerous combat engagements. Any CO worth his sea salt would have fought tooth and nail to get his troops the very latest and best rifle.
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[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

that's what he should get for calling it a boat......

It is a boat.

jt

[Rick the Librarian]

Here's a picture from the USS Washington website showing Admiral Stark inspecting the Marine guard on the ship. The date was June 2, 1942. The rifles are obviously M1s.

http://www.usswashington.com/photopages/photos/admiral_1.jpg

[Ed Byrns]

FMF San Diego,CA received the bulk of the first M-1 Garands
Delivered to the USMC.

[Shooter5]

Approx when did FMF receive? IIRC, there were M1s but not enough for the Guadalcanal invasion so the commanders just stayed with the 1903. Once the 164th showed up in Oct '42 it was all the Corps could do to get Garands to fill out the force. IIRC, submariners call it a "boat" and the Navy calls their's a "ship" if its at least a certain size.
RTL: that is very interesting; if the Marines of BB56 got Garands in spring of '42 it would seem likely their sister crew of BB55 would have got the same?!

[Shooter5]

Approx when did FMF receive? IIRC, there were M1s but not enough for the Guadalcanal invasion so the commanders just stayed with the 1903. Once the 164th showed up in Oct '42 it was all the Corps could do to get Garands to fill out the force. IIRC, submariners call it a "boat" and the Navy calls their's a "ship" if its at least a certain size.
RTL: that is very interesting; if the Marines of BB56 got Garands in spring of '42 it would seem likely their sister crew of BB55 would have got the same?!

[rebound]

A boat can be carried on a ship.... A ship can not be carried on a boat...

[Rick the Librarian]

I've got a copy of Ed Clancy's "The Garand Papers" for 1938-39 (any of you remember Ed's old "Garand Files" from CSP years ago??). It mentions the Marines but I'll have to look it up. Scott Duff's M1 book mentions the Marines getting 400 M1s in late 1939, but I'm sure they were for test only.

[Shooter5]

Any experts out there sharp enough to ID the rifles? Picture is from the USS North Carolina.
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[Rick the Librarian]

They appear to be M1s.

[Shooter5]

Hmm, if that's the case…where is the missing M1 Garand inventory!?!

[Rick the Librarian]

I am FAR from an expert in military "bookkeeping" but it seems that the Marines would have had different records than than Navy - each rifle was usually assigned to a Marine, but this was not the case with the navy weapons.

[Shooter5]

I've got a copy of Ed Clancy's "The Garand Papers" for 1938-39 (any of you remember Ed's old "Garand Files" from CSP years ago??). It mentions the Marines but I'll have to look it up. Scott Duff's M1 book mentions the Marines getting 400 M1s in late 1939, but I'm sure they were for test only.

Canfields M1 Complete Guide, page 62-64, briefly details the Marines acquisition of the M1. A memo from the Commandant of 26 Jan 1943 stated the FMF will replace 1903s and then turn them over to the Navy.

[Rick the Librarian]

Granted, but the point being that these M1s were obtained probably a year earlier!

[Bob S]

RE: BB 55 small arms inventory

Marine detachment records are not likely to be aboard the vessel. An inventory of rifles assigned to the ship MAY still be aboard. Rick is correct: ship's rifles were not assigned to individuals. But a guy who was assigned to the ship's landing party could put a masking tape sticker on his favorite rifle and then try to draw that one everything the landing party was called away. I volunteered to be a BAR man on my first ship because I thought it was "cool". My 18-year-old former self didn't realize that the damn thing weighs 20 lbs!

A ship is placed "in commission" and has a commanding officer.

A boat or craft is placed "in service" and has a petty officer in charge, chief petty officer in charge, craftmaster, or officer in charge. A "ship's boat" will have a cox'n assigned, but not a POIC in the NAVREGS sense.

I was POIC of a TANGO boat a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I have graciously been given permission to go through the files on board the BB55. I will do so after the holidays (their request). This should be an interesting experience.

jt

[Shooter5]

Bob S.: neat, thanks for the info!

Marine A5: congrats and good hunting, sounds like fun!

[Rick the Librarian]

I agree - keep us posted ... and keep an eye out for anything on BB56!! :)

[Shooter5]

RE: BB 55 small arms inventory

Marine detachment records are not likely to be aboard the vessel. An inventory of rifles assigned to the ship MAY still be aboard. Rick is correct: ship's rifles were not assigned to individuals. But a guy who was assigned to the ship's landing party could put a masking tape sticker on his favorite rifle and then try to draw that one everything the landing party was called away. I volunteered to be a BAR man on my first ship because I thought it was "cool". My 18-year-old former self didn't realize that the damn thing weighs 20 lbs!
Resp'y,
Bob S.
Weeeell, not to pull generational war stories buuuut…the 240B pushes 28 pounds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xdj0lBklvM

http://www.marines.com/operating-forces/equipment/weapons/m240b-machinegun

[Bob S]

The modern equivalent of the BAR is the SAW. I don't know what that weighs.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Shooter5]

The modern equivalent of the BAR is the SAW. I don't know what that weighs.

Resp'y,
Bob S.
About 16 pounds.
http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/machine-guns/m249-series/m249-para/
The SAW sucks for Afghanistan due to caliber limitations. IIRC, the Corps is dropping the SAW in favor of an HK 416 version.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iar-what-iar-the-usmcs-saw-substitution-05240/

[Ironlip]

I know nothing about USN rifles, but I wonder if the history of this recent acquisition of mine might dovetail with this thread. One side of the butt is marked NC 152 and the other IDA 20. I wonder if this rifle ever was assigned to the North Carolina or the Idaho?

[Rick the Librarian]

I did see a picture of the USMC detachment on Washington in May, 1941, when the ship was commissioned and they were carrying M1903s. So they must have gotten M1s sometime between that date and May, 1942.

[Shooter5]

I did see a picture of the USMC detachment on Washington in May, 1941, when the ship was commissioned and they were carrying M1903s. So they must have gotten M1s sometime between that date and May, 1942.
The mystery deepens; hopefully, documents will show what happened. Given the 'super-star' status of BB55 and BB56 (first battleships commissioned since 1925), its likely they would have acquired the latest weapons. Looking at the M1911A1 list, BB55 got a fair proportion of the circa 1937 new pistols.
Can you post that picture?

[Shooter5]

I know nothing about USN rifles, but I wonder if the history of this recent acquisition of mine might dovetail with this thread. One side of the butt is marked NC 152 and the other IDA 20. I wonder if this rifle ever was assigned to the North Carolina or the Idaho?
The 1903 experts may know; research for the BB55 M1903 inventory continues - here's hoping it turns up.

[PhillipM]

I've got a copy of Ed Clancy's "The Garand Papers" for 1938-39 (any of you remember Ed's old "Garand Files" from CSP years ago??). It mentions the Marines but I'll have to look it up. Scott Duff's M1 book mentions the Marines getting 400 M1s in late 1939, but I'm sure they were for test only.

I tried the wayback machine but only got dead links. Interesting titles though.

This is where the Ordnance Dept. tries to tell the Navy of all people to BUY into the Garand Rifle, better known as Project 5.

Second part of this "RED LETTER". Sorry about the condition but it is a carbon copy of the first file and was on OLD microfilm.

The funny thing about the above report is that it seems the Navy goes for the deal. All they went there for was 1518 Model 1903 Rifles for the new ships. Now they are being charged with the entire setup for the M1 Garand. Neat trick to say the least!!!

Part of another report telling SA that Ordnance wants this Navy deal; if not SA will be in trouble.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000914081622/http://www.users.fast.net/~eclancy/page5.html

[Shooter5]

I know nothing about USN rifles, but I wonder if the history of this recent acquisition of mine might dovetail with this thread. One side of the butt is marked NC 152 and the other IDA 20. I wonder if this rifle ever was assigned to the North Carolina or the Idaho?
The online archive has a picture/description of a bayonet from the USS NC:

"M1905 bayonet for use with the M1903 Springfield rifle. Wood grip with BB-55 and USS NC engraved and highlighted in white on grip. Blued blade with US Ordnance Dept. markings (serial number) and ”NC” in white on the blade. Serial number: 164834 and ”1906” engraved on blade.
Dimensions L-2.5 inches"

http://battleshipnc.pastperfect-online.com/31022cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=F076F250-2CB1-11D9-8AD3-008928053500;type=101

[pelago]

THIS IS INTERESTING
Not so much the subject (which is interesting i dont mean to imply that it is not) but family perspective.
My wife is a Native American Indian and the family name of Oxendine, and when you look on the roll call that is on the board in the battleship you see four of her Uncles.
I have taken my nephews and nieces and showed them, i tell them "look at these names, these are your great great Uncles who served in and during World War II", and than that brings up the subj of WWII, and they are not taught about that period at all in school, then they look at me and ask if I served in that war and i tell them I was born during the war, they thanks to the great education system of North Carolina have no perspective nor insight at all of the period.
But it turned out well, i did my best to encapsulate WWII and Germany and Japan into the tour of the ship, and i think they found a new respect for history
Heck my wifes uncles could even be in some of the photos