Remington vs. Springfield 1903

[11aaguilar]

So I am a young collector new to the world of 1903. I'm looking on Armslist at two 1903's, one a Springfield and one a Remington. If someone could help me out on the differences or if one is better or worth more than the other, and if these prices are a good deal. If this has already been discussed a reference to the other post would be great too. Thanks!

Springfield:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/851657/harrisburg-pennsylvania-rifles-for-sale--1903-springfield-armory-mark-i

Remington:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/2363701/harrisburg-pennsylvania-rifles-for-sale-trade--1942-remington-1903-

[kcw]

So I am a young collector new to the world of 1903. I'm looking on Armslist at two 1903's, one a Springfield and one a Remington. If someone could help me out on the differences or if one is better or worth more than the other, and if these prices are a good deal. If this has already been discussed a reference to the other post would be great too. Thanks!

Springfield:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/851657/harrisburg-pennsylvania-rifles-for-sale--1903-springfield-armory-mark-i

Remington:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/2363701/harrisburg-pennsylvania-rifles-for-sale-trade--1942-remington-1903-

I've only had a few of these so I'm hardly an expert in the field. My 1st concern is the term "all numbers match" used with the Springfield. As far as I know the only serial number a USGI rifle 03 would be the serial #. If it's found that the number has been reproduced elsewhere, such as on the bolt, the gun was likely loaned or sold to a foreign country, such as the rifles which came back from Greece about ten years ago and where sold through the CMP. European countries, and those which followed their standards, liked to put serial numbers on what they viewed to be critical parts (ie. bolts), and they often did so with the U.S. weapon they obtained. I would assume that both rifles are common "mix masters" (rebuilt one or more times). The issue for me would be the condition of the bores. Are they frost/pit free? Bright? Have they been gaged for muzzle and throat wear? If not, I'd at least want to see a "bullet test" @ the muzzle with a USGI round. As to price, I'll leave that to others as I've been out of the market for about ten years.

[Fred]

The original configuration of the Mark I rifle has been altered with replacement parts and stock. Refinished too. It was originally a WWI era rifle. The Remington, although I cannot see the serial number, could be more original as far as its components go. It's impossible to tell what each really is since there are so few pictures of each. Do some reading up on both types before you just buy a 1903 Springfield. This is a Very Good place to ask questions and learn. There's so much to consider. Why do you want to buy one? Are you looking for a specific type or are you just wanting a 1903 Springfield rifle because you've read what people have to say about them? Study up on the subject. I would advise not to do so in a hurry at the same time that you are getting ready to buy one. You are rushing into it in my opinion and would be better off studying all about the different types first so that you can then decide What you want and then know What you are looking at Before you buy anything. Just some friendly advice. Once you KNOW what the differences are in the various types of 1903's then you can decide what type you want, if any. How can you want to buy a specific rifle if you know nothing about it? I see this all too often where buyers of a 1903 and guys who are intending to buy a 1903 know close to nothing about the rifle and yet are willing to put down some big cash on one, apparently just to own one in a big hurry, only to afterwards ask if they did any good. It's almost as if they'd just received an order from their commander to immediately if not before obtain a 1903 Springfield and be ready to move out. You've Got to know what you're Looking For, Looking At, Wanting to Own and Buying first or you'll Never fully enjoy what it is you've Got.

[11aaguilar]

Very fair and I am rushing into it. I want to buy a 1903 to have a 1903 and to shoot it. I'm in the Army and I love the history behind the weapons and want to buy them before they become harder to find and more expensive. For that reason I am kinda rushing into it. For that matter what resources/books/articles should I read to start getting a good handle on the rifle?

[11mm]

Lt. Col. Brophy's book "The Springfield 1903 Rifles" is a good place to start. It may be available at your local library, or you can fiond used copies on line, though they are generally not cheap.. If you are planning to shoot the 1903, it is probably best that you buy a "high number" Springfield or Rock Island. You can find an explanation of what that means in a number of books, or on the Internet.

[TDP0311]

All very good advice on here... I am new to 1903s as well, and have found them to be quite addictive. As a former Marine, I wanted a USMC M1903, and it took some time to find one, but now that I have I'm very glad I took the time to get what I wanted.

If you are looking for a rifle with rich history, I'd say go for the lower range of the high number serial number Springfields or Rock Islands (Springfield 800,000+ and Rock Island 285507+ are considered high number receivers). This is due to a difference in how the receivers were heat treated; here is a good article on this entire deal: http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

All that said, almost all 1903s have military history, and if you are mainly looking for a shooter, then finding one with a good bore is a priority. All of this is also depending on how much money you want to spend. With the M1903 in particular, definitely read up about them and ask questions, as there is much in depth knowledge about them to be found in books and on forums like this.

Good luck!

[Fred]

I acquired much of my knowledge over 40 years and before most of the books available today had been written. I had a lot to learn and I'm still catching up by reading and by going to gun shows and speaking with experts and collectors and studying the types available first hand and then comparing what I've seen and learned with what's in the only five books I've bought so far that cover the subject. These are just the ones that I've bought and read. First, I bought The Springfield 1903 Rifles by Lt. Col. William S. Brophy (that he autographed for me when I met him). It's a huge MUST HAVE book that goes into a lot of detailed information that has just a few things within that should be updated, but they're only important to advanced collectors.
The '03 Springfields by Clark S. Campbell
Hatcher's Notebook by Major General Julian S. Hatcher
Rock Island Rifle Model 1903 by C.S. Ferris
The Model 1903 Springfield Rifle And Its Variations by Joe Poyer


I would also look at any of the others that I haven't read yet but which some other posters and 1903 collectors have no doubt read and will recommend to you in following posts on this thread.
I would absolutely take advantage of the many experts on the subject of the 1903 Springfield that occasionally or frequently visit and post on this forum. They are the very men who have written books on the subject and they are the very people who you should ask any and all questions from. John Beard is one of these men who often reads these posts. Rick Slater is another. For the most part, I've only conversed with these two experts about the 1903 among the so many others who frequent this forum. My buddy George (Chips) Hensel is a close friend of 31 years who I frequently go to with observations and questions. He too has forgotten more on the subject of 1903 Springfield's and Rock Island's than most guys have learned and remembered. George doesn't even use a computer let alone use this forum, so the sharing of his vast knowledge on the subject is limited to those fortunate to personally know him. I'll try to reference more books on the subject for you by using Google. However you can do the same. I plan on buying at least two other books on the subject titled The 03 Springfield Rifles Era by Clarke S. Campbell
Also, An Illustrated Guide To The '03 Springfield Service Rifle by Bruce N. Canfield.

[Fred]

The rifles wont be disappearing any time soon and so don't be in a panic about buying any. Take your time and do it right. Ask the many collectors on this forum if they'd kindly post some photos of some of their rifles while pointing out and referencing certain details to take note of. They'll be only too happy to do so! We all like to do it! : )

[John Beard]

The two rifles you're considering have been arsenal-overhauled, refinished, and re-assembled from mixed parts. The rifles, therefore, have limited collectibility. If your primary interest is shooting, then a rifle of that type is your best investment. Headspace, bore condition, and stock condition make all the difference in the world.

I recommend that you choose whichever rifle has the most personal appeal. Both rifles are comparable as shooters. The prices are not unreasonable. With a bit of patience and shopping around, however, you might could save $100-$200. But the time and effort to shop around are not free. Spending $100 to visit gun shops and gun shows and save $100 is false economy.

Hope this helps. Good Luck!

J.B.

p.s.,

Before plopping down any ca$h, I very highly recommend that you request an extensive and detailed set of pictures of each rifle so that you or we may do a thorough evaluation. Once you initiate the transaction, it will cost you $50 or more in forfeited shipping expenses to send it back if you are dissatisfied.

[Roadkingtrax]

What is your ultimate end-goal?

Do you want a nice rifle, you can shoot once in a while...but be a nice example of a 1903?

There is a lot of good advice here, but in my opinion...some have advised you to start drinking form the proverbial firehose on a little too early. Buying $300 worth of books is not a practical option if you want to buy a $650 rifle. Now IF the OP wants to get something higher end, I could see starting with more research.

[Fred]

Very fair and I am rushing into it. I want to buy a 1903 to have a 1903 and to shoot it. I'm in the Army and I love the history behind the weapons and want to buy them before they become harder to find and more expensive. For that reason I am kinda rushing into it. For that matter what resources/books/articles should I read to start getting a good handle on the rifle?


Your last post indicated that you were wondering about what resources, books, articles etc. to read up on the subject. One of the best resources you have available to you is This Site because you won't have to pay anything for it. I'm not recommending that you buy anything in the way of books or literature if you don't have any money to spare. You asked about it, so I gave you some titles. Start going on line and after selecting an interesting type of firearm, use that as a reference and bring it to the attention of the collectors on this forum. You'll get some good information and it wont cost you a cent.

[11aaguilar]

Ok this was all outstanding advice I appreciate it. I do want to learn more however and get into some books because down the road I would like to buy more collectable, rare variations when my income is higher. We had a historic weapons shoot through the Army and were able to shoot a M1903A4 with scope (I couldn't tell you if it was original at the time) but it was just awesome and I loved how it shot. Right now however I'm just looking for something I can shoot, and once I learn more down the road get something more historic that might just sit in the safe. The one concern I have now is I can't tell the difference between a good bore and a bad one. I have several new firearms in my safe and they're all shiny, and I have a Mosin-Nagant M44 but the bore looks damn near the same to me. I tried to find pictures online comparing an eroded, pitted bore with a new one but didn't really find anything. I know a bad one will look dull but I don't know if my M44 just has a good bore or if it's me that can't tell the difference.

[JimF]

. . . . I tried to find pictures online comparing an eroded, pitted bore with a new one but didn't really find anything. I know a bad one will look dull but I don't know if my M44 just has a good bore or if it's me that can't tell the difference.

I suggest you acquire an Optivisor to look down the bore . . . .

Even if you have good vision, this device will allow you to see the "nooks and crannies" and yet allow your hands to be free of holding a glass. --Jim

[kcw]

Ok this was all outstanding advice I appreciate it. I do want to learn more however and get into some books because down the road I would like to buy more collectable, rare variations when my income is higher. We had a historic weapons shoot through the Army and were able to shoot a M1903A4 with scope (I couldn't tell you if it was original at the time) but it was just awesome and I loved how it shot. Right now however I'm just looking for something I can shoot, and once I learn more down the road get something more historic that might just sit in the safe. The one concern I have now is I can't tell the difference between a good bore and a bad one. I have several new firearms in my safe and they're all shiny, and I have a Mosin-Nagant M44 but the bore looks damn near the same to me. I tried to find pictures online comparing an eroded, pitted bore with a new one but didn't really find anything. I know a bad one will look dull but I don't know if my M44 just has a good bore or if it's me that can't tell the difference.

If you look, really LOOK, down the barrel of rifle which you know to be "as new" with a bore lite (not so bright as to blind you) you'll note how squared/sharp the edges of the rifling is, how smooth the metal surfaces appear. Once well familiar with what an excellent bore should look like, you'll quickly detect imperfections in barrels made rough, pitted or frosted by the failure to properly clean up after corrosive primer ammo has been used. Worn barrels on the other hand may have no rough aspects about them. If they've been properly cleaned there'll be no pits, however after several thousand rounds the square/sharp edges of the rifling have been decidedly rounded off. This in itself does not make a bad barrel. Many barrels in that condition are in the prime of their lives as regards accuracy. Of primary concern in such barrels is the issue of throat wear (erosion) at the front end of the chamber (gauge required) and possible cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. A gauge can be used at the muzzle, and then of course there's always the old "bullet test". A friend of mine purchased one the "Russian Capture" WWII 98K's which appeared to have an excellent bore and muzzle. The muzzle passed his "bullet test" with flying colors however bullets fired from the gun "keyholed" @ 25 yds! The problem was throat wear! Apparently the gun had been fired so rapidly that the 1st 3/4" of rifling just ahead of the chamber had been burnt/erroded away! If he had a throat gauge in 8x57 the problem would have been obvious. We determined the problem have dropping bullets down the chamber and then measuring. Fortunately he was able to exchange the gun. I can only imagine the terror experienced by the German soldier who was so scared that he felt the need to fire his weapon so quickly that it heated to the point of causing that damage!

[Darreld Walton]

11aaguilar, if you're looking for primarily a shooter, think long and hard about an A3. Really.
The rear sight, while not as finely adjustable as the 1903 models, is still more than adequate, is closer to the eye, making for a longer sight plane, is an aperture, which is easier to use accurately, and the rifles seem to be in much better shape overall, and, easier to acquire these days for sometimes a good deal less money than a 1903 model. Do not worry one whit about a two groove barrel, they shoot better than most shooters are capable of anyway. Put one into a scant or a "C" type stock with good bedding, and you have a very good 'shooter'.