M1 Carbine

[Brad in Idaho]

I'm going to be handloading for M1 Carbines. I will be using H110 powder, and 100 and 110 grain bullets of various manufacture.

I have some questions. Does military M1 carbine brass (LC) have a crimped primer? Should I use the CCI military small rifle primers, or just regular? Should I crimp the finished round? I have carbide dies. I have seen some say not to lube with these dies, and others say to still lube cases. What say you? This is my first time loading .30 caliber carbine so any other thoughts or tips would be appreciated. Thanks.

[rickgman]

Brad, I can't answer all of your questions but there are a few things I can tell you that might help. Firstly, I found that I had approx. 5% perforated primers when using Winchester small rifle primers. I switched to Federal small rifle match primers (which have a thicker cup) and the problem went away. I always lubed my carbine cases since they are kind of a long case and I felt that there was probably considerable friction while resizing as opposed to a relatively short straight walled case like .45 ACP or 9mm. Crimping is not necessary - neck tension hold the bullet in place and most seating dies remove the bell from the case mouth (assuming you use an expander die).

[Litt'le Lee]

always use lube as the case is not a straight wall case--even carbide dies-I listened to the wrong people and did not lube-resulting in case sererating and a ruined chamber-
I found WW cases need reaming but not LC--no crimp-adjust your #2 die to just hold the bullet

[Brad in Idaho]

"...adjust your #2 die to just hold the bullet" I'm a little confused about that, can you explain?

[joem]

The # 2 die is the belling die. Adjust it so you can place the bullet on top of the case and it should not fall off. As far as crimping is concerned, adjust the seat and crimp die to remove the bell. There should be enough neck tension to hold everything in place. Make sure you trim any case that is over spec length. If you have any questions feel free to post them. Good Luck.

[jimb]

The carbine seating die is a taper crimp die. Seating the bullet removes the bell and taper crimps the case at the same time. You don't need to lube every case, but I would lube every 4/5 case just to prevent sticking and allow for easier sizing. Piersed primers can occur, but you usually don't have that problem unless your firing pin protrusion is a little bit long or the tip isn't well rounded. H110 is a very good powder for the carbine. Winchester cases are the only ones that I know that have crimped primers.

[Johnny in Texas]

I like 2400 or H110 always check case length get a cartridge headspace gauge. Trim to minimum long cases can cause catastrophic failures if it fires out of battery. I have carbide dies and I lube my cases.

[Brad in Idaho]

Just REdiscovered that a majority of my cases are unfired LC72. I forget where I got these, but I probably should have gotten more. I'm thinking these are pretty much ready to load. Should I be doing any further case prep on these? How about deburring the flash hole, and uniforming the primer pockets? I measured a bunch already, and they are just below max trim length, I would make certain they all are before beginning.

I also didn't mention I am using Lee dies on this caliber. I've never used Lee dies before, only RCBS. Anything special to know about the dies?

[Chris W.]

I've posted this over on Castboolits as well, but here is my experience. I have 2 Winchester carbines I reload for. Have had several slam fires when loading as a single round only, and letting the bolt slam home on the round. Bolts were fully disassembled and checked out fine. Primers used in this loading were CCI small rifle bought in a lot of 5000. ( 1 case ) Rifles checked out so far, no faults found. Would be unlikely the same fault would be found on both rifles. Firing pin indent from closing the bolt was very small, but still enough to fire the round sometimes. In none of the slam fires did the hammer fall, both sears on both rifles checked out. Discharges caused by firing pin inertia only. When I load for the carbines again, will use the harder mil. spec primers to help prevent this. Also, thinking as some have said, loading from a mag slows the speed of the bolt down enough for this not to happen. What have I personally learned from this ?? First, mil. spec primers are a good thing. Second, always load from a mag.
Chris

[joem]

Lee dies are fine and I have many of them. The .30 carbine is a tapered case so I lube everyone. I don't bother with the flash hole and I make sure the primer pocket is clean. By the way I use AA # 9. Load to get approx 1900 to 2000 FPS and as stated above always load from the mag.

[kcw]

The # 2 die is the belling die. Adjust it so you can place the bullet on top of the case and it should not fall off. As far as crimping is concerned, adjust the seat and crimp die to remove the bell. There should be enough neck tension to hold everything in place. Make sure you trim any case that is over spec length. If you have any questions feel free to post them. Good Luck.

Your case mouth DOES NOT need to look like a trumpet mouth! Adjust your expander so as to "bell" the case mouth only to the minimum extent necessary to allow the bullet to enter the casing without excess force. There's no point in over belling the case mouth and, moreover, excess bell promotes stretch and a possible over length situation.

[kcw]

Remember, the carbine round is basically a pistol round. To that end I've used thousands of small pistol primes in the M-1 carbine without ever having a problem. Of course you'll want to check your firing pin protrusion. I've never been able to detect any difference in accuracy between one primer over another, however the most accurate bullet by far was the 100gr, Hornady "short jacket:.

[Brad in Idaho]

OK, I've never used an "expander" die before. The brass needs some "belling" for the bullet to sit on them. I'm assuming I have to lube (mica) the case necks? The instructions with mine (Lee) show you adding the powder through the die. I'm thinking I should just run my cases through the expander die, then charge them with powder as I normally do other rifle cases. Am I on the right track, or no?

[kcw]

OK, I've never used an "expander" die before. The brass needs some "belling" for the bullet to sit on them. I'm assuming I have to lube (mica) the case necks? The instructions with mine (Lee) show you adding the powder through the die. I'm thinking I should just run my cases through the expander die, then charge them with powder as I normally do other rifle cases. Am I on the right track, or no?

I can't help you with the use of "through the die" die sets; I use the old, standard 3 die RCBS. As to lube, I use the RCBS roll pad and a liquid lube. I also lube the inside with the brush.

[joem]

OK, I've never used an "expander" die before. The brass needs some "belling" for the bullet to sit on them. I'm assuming I have to lube (mica) the case necks? The instructions with mine (Lee) show you adding the powder through the die. I'm thinking I should just run my cases through the expander die, then charge them with powder as I normally do other rifle cases. Am I on the right track, or no?


That's the way I do it. Expand the necks after the trim, clean, prime and load. I use a Hornady powder drop to charge the cases.

[Brad in Idaho]

With help from here, and some online video stuff from Lee, I'm ready to charge cases and seat bullets. Used the expander die to "bell" the cases enough for the bullet to just enter the case mouth (minimal flaring). I will use my RCBS powder measure to add powder as I normally do. I'm loading a hundred with the following to test fire in several different carbines.

Brass - unfired LC72 (primer pockets uniformed, cleaned, and flash holes deburred)
Primer - CCI #41 Mil Spec small rifle
Powder - 13.5gr Hodgdon H110 (I have several different loading manuals, and have found variances in the starting/max loads for this powder so I settled on this amount for a starting load as average)
Bullet - Midway 110gr FMJ

Look reasonable? Thanks to all for the helpful tips, and advice.

[JimF]

Yup . . . Looks reasonable to me.

Gotta' ask though . . .

How do you know the brass, being from 1972, is "unfired"? --Jim

[Brad in Idaho]

Yup . . . Looks reasonable to me.

Gotta' ask though . . .

How do you know the brass, being from 1972, is "unfired"? --Jim

It was sold as such, and it appears brand new inside and out. There is no sign this brass has ever been used. The trim length is correct. Unless I can find the receipt, I couldn't tell you for sure where I got it. I've had it for a while.

[kcw]

Yup . . . Looks reasonable to me.

Gotta' ask though . . .

How do you know the brass, being from 1972, is "unfired"? --Jim

I was wondering if that era brass wasn't from the government 30 carb demill program of about 15 years ago?

[Brad in Idaho]

There is no sign it was ever loaded. Maybe it was just some they never used and sold off as surplus.

[PhillipM]

The M1 carbine round was the first caliber I ever loaded at the tender age of 15 and I learned two important lessons.

First, use lube! I forget the particulars, I know I had a lube pad and I guess I didn't use enough lube and stuck the case, but good. I went to the gun store and bought a stuck case remover. It pulled the threads out. I used the next size up tap and pulled the threads out of that too. At this point I swallowed my pride and took the die to the gunshop where I bought my dies and let the gunsmith handle it. He had to put the die in acid and dissolve the brass to get it out and I the acid turned my shiny carbide RCBS sizer almost black.

Second, they need trimming. I had no concept of cases stretching back then and somehow got away with it with no problems till the bolt wouldn't go into battery fully. At first I'd just hit the op handle with my palm but after the next loading, I'd slap it closed and then the next round I couldn't get it closed on my reload nor a new military round. By using a .410 brush in the chamber I was able to pull out a brass ring where the rifle trimmed the case! Not knowing any better I did this dozens of times till I learned cases need to be trimmed. I rushed out and bought a trim die and then realized the ram on the rockchucker was too short. Good ole RCBS also sells (or did) an extended shell holder for the carbine. I got one and a new file and was good to go.

I left my dies in an apartment when I moved years ago and have recently replaced them and bought a caliber conversion kit for my Dillon so I need to get the old Plainfield out and exercise it and the Winchester more often.

[Brad in Idaho]

I finished loading my 100 rounds of Carbine ammo. It looks great, I KNOW what's in it and how it is made, so I have confidence it will work as expected. I had a couple of issues during the process which I managed to correct without a lot of difficulty. I have chambered, and ejected some of the rounds in my carbines successfully, now all I have to do is get to the range (probably next Friday) and do some shooting with it.

Thanks again to all of you who offered advice, and help. It is greatly appreciated. I will post a range report on my ammo when I have put some of it downrange.

[Brad in Idaho]

I beat our forecast snow to the range this morning to test out my .30 M1 Carbine hand loads. All went well. The two rifles I took shot as well or better with my ammo as they did with any other ammo I have fired with them. All my rounds fed, fired, and ejected without a hitch. The casings don't look any worse for the wear, and no sign of bulged primers. I guess I got it right.

BTW, the snow started just as I was leaving....

Thanks again to all for the help, encouragement, and advice. I know where to come for answers.

Brad

[Tuna]

Phil brought it up and I will second it and that is keep a close check on case length. Every time you size a case it will stretch and quite a bit. Be sure to check it and trim the case if it gets to 1.290 or more. Most of the books call for trimming down to 1.280 but if you go lower then you may get miss fires as only the extractor is holding the case. Most factory ammo is about the 1.285 length. The most accurate bullet by far in most carbines is one of the soft point bullets. Much more accurate then FMJ.

[Brad in Idaho]

Phil brought it up and I will second it and that is keep a close check on case length. Every time you size a case it will stretch and quite a bit. Be sure to check it and trim the case if it gets to 1.290 or more. Most of the books call for trimming down to 1.280 but if you go lower then you may get miss fires as only the extractor is holding the case. Most factory ammo is about the 1.285 length. The most accurate bullet by far in most carbines is one of the soft point bullets. Much more accurate then FMJ.

Thanks for that Tuna. I am getting the message loud and clear that case trim length and overall cartridge length are critical with Carbine loads. I have some Hornady 100gr SJ soft points I will be trying in a future load. This load was an attempt to simulate military ball ammo. It worked well IMO.

[hkp7fan]

Hello, Brad in Idaho. I am moving to Idaho within the next couple of years, so there will be two of us! (I am a Brad as well). Looking forward to getting there. A friend who lives there sent me a t-shirt for Christmas that shows the state turned on its side, with a trigger and trigger guard added. There is a pine tree projectile shooting out of the "barrel".

I may ask you for some advice on where to shoot. As much as I'd love to move up north, my wife is insisting on the Boise area and I'll probably have to go along with it. But at least I'll be in the state. :)

[Brad in Idaho]

Congrats, good choice. I can't help about shooting in the Boise area. I am in north central Idaho near the tri-state border. Different world from southern Idaho. There are other Idahoans onboard here too.