45 ACP case flash hole revelations

[Matt Anthony]

I've been shooting and reloading for over 55 years and recently I have seen something that is disturbing. I was reloading 45 ACP and cleaning the primer pockets when I noticed a Winchester case with a huge flash hole. There was just enough material at the bottom of the pocket to stop the primer from falling into the case. Sorting the different cases, I noticed that there were Federal primers also with huge flash holes.
I checked all 1450 cases and came up with 33 Winchester and 14 Federal. These were once fired cases taken from our range. They looked absolutely new!
Anyway, I was thankful I inspect every case as this could of been a bigger problem if these cases were fired.
Matt

[joem]

I've seen a few that I picked up at the range. I think they were from ammo listed as enviroment friendly or some such nonsense.

[emmagee1917]

I remember back when , when CCI ( I think ) made plastic bullets to be powered by a primer for indoor practice . The .38s had thier own little plastic cases , but the .45s were to be fired in standard .45 cases with the primer hole drilled out . This somehow prevented primer set back in the primer alone powered loads. this made the cases unsuitable for powdered power loads.
The " green " loads , AFAIK , are all small primered and normal sized holes and have TMJ bullets , although they advertise them as FMJs.
Chris

[Hefights]

Could you be picking up one person's brass who is for some reason drilling the holes? (All found on same range?)

[Tuna]

Chris is right I think. It was standard practice years ago to drill out the primer pocket for a load that could be used indoors or down in the basement. Many loaded the case with a wax bullet powered just by the primer.

[raymeketa]

Before getting too worked up about it, I'd take a couple of those cases and load them up and shoot them to see if it really makes any difference. I can't imagine that a standard LP primer lighting 5 grains of BE or 8 grains of Unique will show any difference at all.

Ray

[Matt Anthony]

Before getting too worked up about it, I'd take a couple of those cases and load them up and shoot them to see if it really makes any difference. I can't imagine that a standard LP primer lighting 5 grains of BE or 8 grains of Unique will show any difference at all.

Ray

I am not worked up at all, just posted a warning to watch for enlarged flash holes. These cases are once fired from Winchester and Federal. They have not been drilled out and both loads were standard 230 gr. full metal jacketed. Like I said in my post, the Winchester cases do not have enough material to afford to even install a primer.

Here, let's not get too far into this event, a flash hole is suppose to be no more than .080 and some cases have even smaller diameter flash holes, like the PPC's. Higher than normal pressures will happen if the flash hole is larger than the standard. And yes, wax and rubber bullets used for indoor shooting will require you to drill out the flash hole and you must keep them separate from standard load cases.

That's it, if you want your ammo to be consistant, then your brass must be consistant! From the length, sizing, primer depth, flash hole burrs and diameter to crimping, everything must be uniform.
Matt

[raymeketa]

Matt

When you use words like "disturbing, "problem", "warning", I get the impression that you sense something terrible is about to happen. My post was meant to suggest that maybe there is really nothing at all to be concerned about. As I suggested, load up a few and shoot them. You may find that you really cannot tell the difference. I shot my first pistol competition in 1955 and have loaded thousands of rounds of handgun ammunition since then. I have yet to find that prepping pistol cases or trying to load for maximum uniformity makes any difference whatsoever. Maybe your experiences are different. I also shoot Benchrest and agree that such things may be important in a cartridge like the PPC that generates 60,000+ psi chamber pressure and is meant to shoot tiny dots instead of groups, but not in a 10 - 15,000 psi handgun cartridge where 5 MOA will win you all the fake-wood trophies your den wall can hold. The age of the Internet has caused many shooters to become overly anxious about things that we used to consider routine.

JMHO

Ray

[KeithNyst]

I have some Federal Champion cases that I kept after shooting; I can pass a 6/64ths drill bit through them but not a 7/64th. I have some new Starline brass that I can pass a 5/64th, but not 6/64th.

[Matt Anthony]

Matt

When you use words like "disturbing, "problem", "warning", I get the impression that you sense something terrible is about to happen. My post was meant to suggest that maybe there is really nothing at all to be concerned about. As I suggested, load up a few and shoot them. You may find that you really cannot tell the difference. I shot my first pistol competition in 1955 and have loaded thousands of rounds of handgun ammunition since then. I have yet to find that prepping pistol cases or trying to load for maximum uniformity makes any difference whatsoever. Maybe your experiences are different. I also shoot Benchrest and agree that such things may be important in a cartridge like the PPC that generates 60,000+ psi chamber pressure and is meant to shoot tiny dots instead of groups, but not in a 10 - 15,000 psi handgun cartridge where 5 MOA will win you all the fake-wood trophies your den wall can hold. The age of the Internet has caused many shooters to become overly anxious about things that we used to consider routine.

JMHO

Ray

Ray, flash hole diameter is important and it can be extremely dangerous for the shooter and others around that shooter if a load blows up. I posted that there wasn't enough of the bottom of the flashhole to even seat a primer and you say, "load up a few and shoot them". I will post a picture on Monday as they are at my business. The fact there is no meat at the bottom of the case to support a primer was actually more of a concern than the increased size of the flash hole.
I follow instructions the manufacturers print, the information in reloading manuals and follow safety concerns about reloading cartridges. There must be a line drawn by all reloaders to adhere to standards when reloading and shooting any reloads.
Was this alarming, disturbing, a problem and a warning, well yes it was. As something I noticed when I was sorting cases! What is wrong with posting what I experienced and warning others? Well Ray, there is nothing wrong with what I posted, however, you poo-poo'd my post as nothing and for me to load up sub-standard cases and fire them. That is totally irresponsible for you to post something like that, in fact I am shocked that you would tell someone to "load them up and fire them"! What, to see what could happen............incredible Ray, simply incredible! What if I had done what you suggested and my 45 came apart and blinded a bystander or part of my 45 shot through my neck cutting my carotid artery and I layed there as my blood ran all over the range floor, ruining everyone's day and then I expired! Thanks Ray..........
However, these cases are not NT cases, which do have larger flash holes due to the Non-Toxic primers Winchester uses on NT cases.
Matt

[joem]

Chris is right I think. It was standard practice years ago to drill out the primer pocket for a load that could be used indoors or down in the basement. Many loaded the case with a wax bullet powered just by the primer.

I used to shoot with a old fella that would load a .30 carbine with crayons and shoot in his basement. He said he liked the red ones best as it was easier to see when they hit his target. By the way he was one of the best shots at the club with that carbine.

[raymeketa]

Wow Matt. Just WOW!!

If that doesn't scare the crap out of any young shooters wanting to get into handloading, nothing will. But, you forgot to include asteroids, and global warming, and Obamacare, and . . .

[Matt Anthony]

Wow Matt. Just WOW!!

If that doesn't scare the crap out of any young shooters wanting to get into handloading, nothing will. But, you forgot to include asteroids, and global warming, and Obamacare, and . . .

Well Ray, it certainly didn't the scare the crap out of you, you wanted me to fill those cases and shoot them! You pathetic chicken sh-t arm chair liberal! Forget your asteroids, false global warming mind you and your beloved Obamacare, stick to the reloading manual information and don't tell someone to do something you yourself wouldn't do! Or maybe you would be so stupid to do what you asked me to do! How dare you write something so against all safety standards and protocal. You should be ashamed of yourself my friend!
Before someone does something stupid, one should warn others of impending problems they see and know about. It's not to frighten, it's to educate so a mistake doesn't happen. What the heck is wrong with that? I'll tell you Ray, NOTHING AT ALL! I suppose passing the AHC bill (obamacare) was OK before reading it, well it wasn't OK, and before anyone starts reloading they should know all aspects of the procedures, so they don't kill themselves and someone else!
It's about time people take a stand and start telling the truth about procedures and stop being so worried about being politically correct! Hope you have a nice holiday Ray, along with your family and close friends.
Matt

[Parashooter]

. . .What if I had done what you suggested and . . . part of my 45 shot through my neck cutting my carotid artery and I layed there as my blood ran all over the range floor, ruining everyone's day and then I expired!

I guess we could call you a red-neck - at least until someone cleaned you up! :icon_wink:

Seriouslly, though, I empathize with Ray's position opposing an example of the incessant shrill alarmist tone found on every handloading forum I've seen. There are too many of us emphasizing exaggerated dangers and not enough promulgating a reasoned and encouraging approach to the art.

After the holidays, I'll open up a few .45 ACP flash holes and see what effect it has on firing an otherwise normal load. I suspect it won't be much in this fairly low-intensity cartridge.

[Hefights]

From OP: "I checked all 1450 cases and came up with 33 Winchester and 14 Federal. These were once fired cases taken from our range."

Ok, so 3.2 percent of what I assume may have been free range brass had the large flash holes. If someone modified them, I guess they were not once fired. In any event, just sort them out and don't shoot them. If they were free you are still a winner. If not maybe you can get a discount if they are not within proper specifications.

[Matt Anthony]

From OP: "I checked all 1450 cases and came up with 33 Winchester and 14 Federal. These were once fired cases taken from our range."

Ok, so 3.2 percent of what I assume may have been free range brass had the large flash holes. If someone modified them, I guess they were not once fired. In any event, just sort them out and don't shoot them. If they were free you are still a winner. If not maybe you can get a discount if they are not within proper specifications.

I get thousands of cases each month from two police ranges and our club. I recycle probably 30 lbs. a month in dented, split, primer blowout and cases which have loose pockets. It's not the fact that on this batch I am losing 3.2%, I let go another 150 for other reasons. I posted about the fact there wasn't enough material to support a primer, that was my concern and the fact that when comparing other flash holes, some of the W/W and Federal had larger than normal flash holes. I'm sorry I used the words disturbing and warning, evidently some readers don't like those words, alarming is another word that strikes fear in the hearts of sensitive reloaders. I am so sick of "political correctness", I could puke!
I read the last two posts, one from you and the other from parashooter. I have read for years both of your posts and both of you are very well educated in reloading and I have enjoyed reading your replies to others.
My post was intended to be informational on what I observed when sorting brass. I wasn't asking anyone if I should use them or reload them. I have sold brass for 40 years and know what to sell to others, and enlarged flash holed brass gets tossed. If it's larger than .090 it's history. Thanks for all the great advice!
Matt

[Hefights]

Hey man its all good. Merry Christmas!

[Varmintpopper]

Both of You... Go to Your rooms !!

[Matt Anthony]

Both of You... Go to Your rooms !!

I did go to my room and thought about the entire thread and why I bothered to post something that I found profoundly odd. Not a worry, I won't post anymore, it's not a problem at all! And the pictures of the flash holes, why bother, most would say they were drilled or speculate other fairy tale ways they could of become this way! Who cares!
Matt

[PhillipM]

I'd still like to see a picture or have you relate what the measured diameter of the holes are.

[PhillipM]

Like this?

http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/15/55/99/36/45_nt_10.jpg

[Parashooter]

. . . There are too many of us emphasizing exaggerated dangers and not enough promulgating a reasoned and encouraging approach to the art.

After the holidays, I'll open up a few .45 ACP flash holes and see what effect it has on firing an otherwise normal load. I suspect it won't be much in this fairly low-intensity cartridge.

This afternoon I drilled out three .45 cases to see what would happen. The first was with a .185" drill and it was obvious that the .0125" (.210"-.185"/2) shelf remaining at the bottom of the primer pocket wasn't enough to support the anvil. The other two were drilled .154". I loaded up the three cases with WLP primers, 4.5 grains Red Dot, and 230-grain cast RN bullets. With some trepidation and a leather glove, I then fired them in a spare 1911 (Auto. Ord. frame, Colt commercial barrel and slide).

The one drilled .185" did not fire on the first attempt but did with a second strike. The other two (.154" flash holes) fired normally. There was no evidence of any hazard or excess pressure during firing, ejection, or when examining the fired cases. Although this is a small sample and by no means definitive, I'm reasonably convinced enlarged flash holes in fact pose no particular danger with otherwise reasonable loads in .45ACP.

http://i40.tinypic.com/ofd7gh.jpg

[Matt Anthony]

This afternoon I drilled out three .45 cases to see what would happen. The first was with a .185" drill and it was obvious that the .0125" (.210"-.185"/2) shelf remaining at the bottom of the primer pocket wasn't enough to support the anvil. The other two were drilled .154". I loaded up the three cases with WLP primers, 4.5 grains Red Dot, and 230-grain cast RN bullets. With some trepidation and a leather glove, I then fired them in a spare 1911 (Auto. Ord. frame, Colt commercial barrel and slide).

The one drilled .185" did not fire on the first attempt but did with a second strike. The other two (.154" flash holes) fired normally. There was no evidence of any hazard or excess pressure during firing, ejection, or when examining the fired cases. Although this is a small sample and by no means definitive, I'm reasonably convinced enlarged flash holes in fact pose no particular danger with otherwise reasonable loads in .45ACP.

http://i40.tinypic.com/ofd7gh.jpg

I have an .080 pin guage that I use to check flash hole diameter. I also have many tools that deburr the inside of the flash hole that do not disturb the diameter of the flash hole. There is a reason for the diameter to be what it is, I believe it's support for the primer inself and for over pressure situations where the primer could be blown out easier with the larger hole. I could be wrong, and that's OK too.
Regardless of your test, I will continue to check flash hole diameter and continue to cull cases where the hole is enlarged. If anything, being consistant is the art to accuracy.

On the subject of flashholes, I have a friend who bought some foreign 223 brass. Looking at the brass, I noticed not one flash hole was centered in the primer pocket. Everyone of them were off center, some very close to the inner primer cup support, not touching but quite close. I mentioned this to him and he said it was normal and the manufacturer said the same! OK......

My son in law bought some 380 acp hard cast bullets from a Wisconsin company. On the box it states, 95 gr. hard cast, sized to .356. I use M dies for expanding case mouths and from the get go I was having trouble seating the bullets straight. I checked the diameter of the bullets,
.357 +. I used a starrett and a central tool caliper which I use in my machine shop and the tools are right on. Calling the company was useless, it's ok that they were .357 the owner said. When I mentioned that we were having a hard time loading them, he told me that they do it all the time without a problem. I asked him why he didn't label them .357, he told me they were sized in a .356 and they must of swelled! OK, however, resizing them to .356 caused them to load normal after using the M die.

Parashooter: I will watch what I post in the future so as not to alarm others so no one has a fit or mental breakdown!
Matt

[JimF]

. . . . Calling the company was useless, it's ok that they were .357 the owner said. When I mentioned that we were having a hard time loading them, he told me that they do it all the time without a problem. I asked him why he didn't label them .357, he told me they were sized in a .356 and they must of swelled! . . . .

Don't-cha just LOVE IT . . . . . when the person on the other end of the phone allows his "eyes to glaze over" when you are trying to correct, what should be to them, a MAJOR flaw in their product! --Jim