View Full Version : Type 38 stock finish
Hi guys
I have a Type 38 which is all matching and fully mummed...the downside is the stock has been refinished from what I've been told. Should there be any external markings on the stock (Carthouches?)? Also if a stock has been refinished is there a way to bring it back to close to factory appearance? The rifle overall is in 90% shape...so probably worth messing with.
Could another Type 38 stock which hasn't been refinished be used?
Thanks in advance
Greg
If it is a truly all matching rifle, the stock and hand guard will have the assembly number of the rifle stamped in the barrel channel. There are also some very small kanji stamps, usually under the wrist and near the trigger guard.
Here is a great site;
http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html
And a data sheet;
http://www.castle-thunder.com/datasheets/38ds.pdf
How about some pictures.
D.
I have done some experiments with oil stains and have them marked down, in my shop. It depends some on the particular piece of wood, but it will be close. A semi-gloss poly is what I used I believe, will check that also and get back here later.
Did not use a poly, used a spray can of clear laquer as the original is a jap laquer of some sort, very toxic to the skin by the way. Min-Wax oil stain. Red Oak gives a very deep reddish color. Roswood gives a lighter shade and Red Mahagony still lighter. Each one was two coats of stain, letting them soak (but not dry) before wipeing.
Generaly when stocks were refinished the person does not do the barrel channel so that is a good place to do a match. Japanese wood seems to very allot in the way it takes color. I used one old cut up stock for my samples.
. . . . as the original is a jap laquer of some sort, very toxic to the skin by the way. . . .
I once read that the finish of the stocks had a sumack resin base . . . . .
So much so that, when the occupyng troops were in Japan, those that went to the various bars in the country, had an allergic skin reaction when leaning their forearms on the bar!
Apparently the finish on the bar was about the same as placed on the gun stocks!
Maybe just a tale . . . maybe not! --Jim
Just a thought, when I first saw my rifle the finish was so crappy I considered refinishing it. Before I could it was pointed out to me that the shiny varnish looking finish was correct.
The original finish, of your Type 38, was urushi, a type of Japanese lacquer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_vernicifluum
It can cause a rash when uncured since it contains the same oil as poison ivy.
If it is an all matching rifle and you replace the stock you will decrease it's collector value.
D.
Inspector stamps may or may not be present. The "correct" finish is almost impossible to determine. Stock colors varied from bright red to bright yellow. Most were a reddish brown.
There is allot of misinformation on the finish as far as color and gloss. I have seen original perfect stocks that people scoffed at as being "refinished with an ugly red gloss that was obviously wrong"
Type 30 on top, then two Type 38s and two Type 38 trainers, Type I, Siamese Mauser and finally a Type99 Long. No two are exactly the same finish and all are original. Most 38s and 38 trainers are almost black. This is usually due to age.
http://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/q77/s720x720/1520752_10151845251881200_1104450880_n.jpg
Three Type 99s and a childrens training rifle. Original finishes except the childrens training rifle has been waxed recently to clean it and bring out the color a bit. The second rifle is pretty reddish but it doesn't show too well in the photo.
http://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1483331_10151845251896200_797567465_n.jpg
Original RED Type38 glossy finish on the left and some Type99s of various colors. Note the type 99 on the far right has gouges in the finish showing the wood is almost white but the finish is very red. Also has Kanji painted on the side of the buttstock so I know it was not refinished.
http://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1506996_10151845251886200_1232357074_n.jpg
I will try to get a few pics posted later today and hopefuly will destock the rifle as well to check for matching numbers. Thanks guys for all the info. ! Merry Christmas!
I de-stocked the rifle and am having a hard time finding any serial numbers or assembly numbers in the stock or handguard. The rifle is a "no series" rifle made in Tokyo. The serial range is 1,145,xxx which appears to be in the late teen's as far as production and what I can find.
I do see what looks like a "house" (square with a triangle on top) stamping in the stock channel near the action area. I don't see any other numbers or symbols in the stock or handguard though. There appears to be a square stamped in the handguard as well. The buttplate is cupped from looking at it (similar to a 98k cupped buttplate vs. a pre-1941 plate).
The stock appears to have orginial finish in the channel and is a deep reddish color with remmants of varinsh inside.
Where in the barrel channel will the assembly numbers typically be?
TIA
Greg
The assembly number on my Type 38's handguard is located in the middle of the barrel channel halfway between the front and back. The assembly number of the buttstock is located in the middle of the barrel channel towards the front around the area were the handguard is located.
You are looking for a three number stamping consisting of the first three digits of the serial number, it is usually preceded by a kanji.
In your case it is probably obscured by the original finish.
I'm not sure, but I believe that early "no series" Type 38s had flat buttplates.
D.
That is why in said the color would show different on different stocks. I think the stain color was consistent but different pieces of wood showed it in many shades.
Never heard the story about bars and elbows, doubt it or you would get rash from rifles. But many saliors got skin rash from sanding their rifles. Navy doc's finially figured it out.
As i said, the barrel channel will likely have original finish which can be used to match new stain.
I've been looking for the serial number in the stock channel but can't find one. it is possible it is covered by old varnish. Is there anything you guys would reccomend to take off the really old varnish to maybe expose a serial?
Also the stock has a cupped buttplate. Aby idea of if that would be correct for a rifle in the 1,1xx,xxx range?
What stain do you guys find is best for a darker finish?
Go back to my second post, I gave results of what I have done with stain!
Merlot is one you may want to try. It is a deep red but should be tested on a hidded spot before use.
I tried to check the stock on my Type38 but the screws are untouched and I couldn't get the handguard off without tools so I am not willing to pull the stock off. All indications are that the stock is original to the rifle and has original finish.
As to the Japanese using different colors of stain. I think the shades varied a little but not much and then later on they switched to not using a stain or using a very light stain.
The Type I rifles are usually tan and have the standard Carcano finish. I suspect that Beretta finished the stocks out to their own specs not Jap specs.
I'm curious if anyone has a "no series" rifle and whether it has a flat or cupped buttplate.
In checking The Type 38 Arisaka by Allan, the no series rifles all had flat butt plates. There were flat and cupped butt plates used on the rifles made by Nagoya and Kokura arsenals, in the late '30's-early'40's The mark you describe in the barrel channel sounds like it could be Nagoya Arsenal.
It might be that your rifle was restocked with a Nagoya stock. That would explain the cupped butt plate and no number in the barrel channel.
Dean (the other one)
That sounds like it could be the case. Thanks for the info.
Greg
Great picture reference, Guamsst. Invaluable...
Great picture reference, Guamsst. Invaluable...
Glad to help. Later on I will try to get a better set of pics with descriptions of which rifles stocks are which colors.
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