Rem. 1903 Question

[Marty T.]

First off, I am not an intense "student" of 1903's but I do find them interesting and fun rifles. The question. I have a Remington made Model 1903 in the 3,272,xxx range. I have been watching GB auctions to get an idea of what they are selling for now as compared to what I gave for it. Some have stated that rifles in this range were a "conversion" model as they were changing over to the 1903a1 models and this is supposed to make them somewhat more desirable than other ranges. What is the factual part of this and does this really make them that much more sought after? Not trying to sell, just curious. Thanks.

[John Beard]

Seasons' Greetings!

Please permit me to make correction. The conversion model that others refer to is the M1903A3, not M1903A1. The M1903A3 has a receiver-mounted aperture rear sight which replaces the barrel-mounted M1903 ladder rear sight.

With that correction in mind, your rifle is not quite in the "conversion" model range. The conversion model range which adds value occurs during a three-month period starting in December, 1942, when Remington was simultaneously making both M1903 and M1903A3 rifles. Collectors seek after an M1903 rifle having a higher serial number than a companion M1903A3 rifle, which represents an inverted relationship. Approximately 30,000, total, of such rifles were made, and the survival rate of original specimens is not high.

Hope this helps. Happy Holidays!

J.B.

[Ls6man]

Interesting side note..I physically handled a Remington '03 which was marked 1903A3...rifle looked like a "FJA" Remington '03 though...was a gorgeous rifle...wish I would have bought it from Bill Thacker when I looked at it.

[Marty T.]

I stand corrected. The ad did state the conversion was to the 1903A3, not A1 as I originally posted. Also stated that there were about 250,000 made during this "conversion" period. Believe me, I am not being argumentative because I don't know enough to argue, but for my learning, mine has a 9-42 barrel, and what would be the date of manufacture for my rifle 3,272,xxx, and how far out is this range from what they are advertising? Also, how did the discrepancy come about? 30,000 to 250,000 is a BIG jump. Thanks for info.

[Rick the Librarian]

Not sure if I am answering your question, but the common figure for the number of Remington M1903s manufactured is in the 348,000 range. Slightly over 700,000 Remington M1903A3s were manufactured and about 234,000 Smith Corona M1903A3s were made.

[TDP0311]

Perhaps the article meant to list 25,000 instead of 250,000... As you can imagine, there are discrepancies like the overlap that occurred when the goal is mass wartime production- but it wasn't an overlap of a quarter million.

Ls6man- that would be a very interesting rifle indeed!

[Ls6man]

It was a VERY cool rifle...a true transitional...I think it was in the Springfield Research magazine at one point..

[John Beard]

I stand corrected. The ad did state the conversion was to the 1903A3, not A1 as I originally posted. Also stated that there were about 250,000 made during this "conversion" period. Believe me, I am not being argumentative because I don't know enough to argue, but for my learning, mine has a 9-42 barrel, and what would be the date of manufacture for my rifle 3,272,xxx, and how far out is this range from what they are advertising? Also, how did the discrepancy come about? 30,000 to 250,000 is a BIG jump. Thanks for info.

Seasons' Greetings!

As Rick the Librarian pointed out, approximately 348,000 M1903 rifles were manufactured by Remington before they completed transition to the M03-A3 rifle. A popular myth about Remington rifles is that they manufactured approximately 100,000 (depending on the source) M1903 rifles fitted with milled parts before transitioning to a M1903 "Modified" rifle fitted with stamped parts. While later production Remington M1903 rifles were indeed fitted with stamped parts, they were NOT properly identifiable as "Modified." Yet the myth continues. One could, perhaps, rationalize that the so-called "Modified" rifles with stamped parts fell into a "conversion" model range. But no such rationalization is historically accurate.

Your rifle was manufactured in approximately October, 1942. The real overlap range extends from approximately S/N 3323000 to S/N 3357000, although a few scattered M1903 rifles having much higher serial numbers are known.

Hope this helps. Happy Holidays!

J.B.

[Rick the Librarian]

Seasons' Greetings!

As Rick the Librarian pointed out, approximately 348,000 M1903 rifles were manufactured by Remington before they completed transition to the M03-A3 rifle. A popular myth about Remington rifles is that they manufactured approximately 100,000 (depending on the source) M1903 rifles fitted with milled parts before transitioning to a M1903 "Modified" rifle fitted with stamped parts. While later production Remington M1903 rifles were indeed fitted with stamped parts, they were NOT properly identifiable as "Modified." Yet the myth continues. One could, perhaps, rationalize that the so-called "Modified" rifles with stamped parts fell into a "conversion" model range. But no such rationalization is historically accurate.

Your rifle was manufactured in approximately October, 1942. The real overlap range extends from approximately S/N 3323000 to S/N 3357000, although a few scattered M1903 rifles having much higher serial numbers are known.

Hope this helps. Happy Holidays!

J.B.

+1 !!:1948:

[Marty T.]

Ya'll keep on and I'm gonna have to start studying up on the 1903's and learn all the history there, too. Been all in the M1 and the Carbines and have the one 1903. May have to start a new collection group. Will tell the wife that it is all you all's fault, and that way I can live to fight another day. Thanks again.
Marty

[John Beard]

Ya'll keep on and I'm gonna have to start studying up on the 1903's and learn all the history there, too. Been all in the M1 and the Carbines and have the one 1903. May have to start a new collection group. Will tell the wife that it is all you all's fault, and that way I can live to fight another day. Thanks again.
Marty

Seasons' Greetings!

Welcome to the club!

Warning! M1903 collecting can be pleasantly habit-forming!

Happy Holidays! :hello:

J.B.

[Kurt]

John, Interesting thread.

Question; is there a known serial number or range when the initial changes were made to the receivers themselves? I have a receiver serial number 3305977 which has the initial cut for the rear sight but little else other than maybe some other subtle changes I don't have the experienced eye for. Just a curiosity and maybe unknown down to that exactness.

Happy Holidays to you

Regards

Kurt

[Rick the Librarian]

I have noticed them on the 3,290,000 range and up. Perhaps John can mention any before that serial range. It seems there was mention of a couple in the 3,280,000 but my memory may be faulty.

[Kurt]

Thanks Rick, kind of narrows it down a bit. I have a sporter in the 3090000 range and had another in the 3266000 range and neither had any transition steps.

Kurt

[Rick the Librarian]

Stamped parts were introduced roughly in the 3,220,000 range. On a sporter, the changes would be a lot harder to spot. They started almost immediately after production commenced with one of the largest "changes" being when the M1903A3 was introduced.

However, a very high numbered Remington M1903 looked quite different from a very low-numbered one. I have a restored 3,003,000 range and, trust me, the differences between it and the very high-numbered ones I have seen stand out quite a bit.

[John Beard]

Seasons' Greetings!

As Rick mentioned, the lowest I've seen were in the S/N 3,290,000 range.

Happy Holidays!

J.B.

[jonnyo55]

I have always suspected my Remington M1903, 3228652, of being produced during the production overlap between '03 rifles and '03A3's. It has all milled "R" coded parts, a barrel date of 9/42, and features the rough machining and "clear" parkerizing characteristic of late Remmy '03's. The ringer is the stock...it's the expected straight grip RA/FJA (unboxed, with crossed cannons) with RA "heiroglyphics" in front of the floorplate and stock bolts, but it's cut for the 'A3 handguard ring. In all respects, it appears original...consistent finish and wear on all metal parts, which is reflected by the stock. It just has that undefinable original "feel".

When did RA produce their first 'A3, and at what serial number?

Also...were these rifles actually issued to frontline combat units (along with their 'A3 brethren), or considered "reserve" weapons and issued to service/support troops?

[John Beard]

I have always suspected my Remington M1903, 3228652, of being produced during the production overlap between '03 rifles and '03A3's. It has all milled "R" coded parts, a barrel date of 9/42, and features the rough machining and "clear" parkerizing characteristic of late Remmy '03's. The ringer is the stock...it's the expected straight grip RA/FJA (unboxed, with crossed cannons) with RA "heiroglyphics" in front of the floorplate and stock bolts, but it's cut for the 'A3 handguard ring. In all respects, it appears original...consistent finish and wear on all metal parts, which is reflected by the stock. It just has that undefinable original "feel".

When did RA produce their first 'A3, and at what serial number?

Also...were these rifles actually issued to frontline combat units (along with their 'A3 brethren), or considered "reserve" weapons and issued to service/support troops?

Seasons' Greetings!

Remington M1903, S/N 3228652, would not likely be factory-fitted with a stock inletted for the M'03-A3 handguard ring. Based on your description, the most logical explanation is that your rifle has been re-stocked at some time in the past.

The earliest Remington M'03-A3 is not known. But it's somewhere around S/N 3,323,000.

Hope this helps. Happy Holidays!

J.B.

[Kurt]

Thanks Rick and John.

I know the sporters and re-arsenaled are tougher so was trying to focus on the receiver differences. The 3305977's barrel and receiver match up date and finish wise but the stock was changed to a scant long ago before I got it. The hardware is a mix of milled and stamped and the rifle was set up for some level of competitive shooting ie drilled for a rear aperture sight and a polished bolt and follower. Other than the initial rear sight bridge cuts, the rear of the breech arc is flattened across but not yet to the final A3 milling.
It's not a collector or anything, just a great shooter that was nicely done. The more I learn from you guys the more easily it is to recognize and know what's what when looking at these great old 03's.

Regards

Kurt

[Doug Douglass]

Interesting....I'll jump in with a Remington 03 I have had for years, #3236652, 9/42 bbl date, all R marked machined except for a stamped unmarked barrel band, and stamped R marked front sling ring, boxed FJA stock, looks as issued. So this one has 2 stamped parts. Also there is a stamped E in the handguard sight cut??

The kicker is it came with a correct 1942 dated Model 1923 sling.

[John Beard]

Interesting....I'll jump in with a Remington 03 I have had for years, #3236652, 9/42 bbl date, all R marked machined except for a stamped unmarked barrel band, and stamped R marked front sling ring, boxed FJA stock, looks as issued. So this one has 2 stamped parts. Also there is a stamped E in the handguard sight cut??

The kicker is it came with a correct 1942 dated Model 1923 sling.

Seasons' Greetings!

I assume from your description that the only stamped parts on your rifle are the lower band and the attached sling swivel. The two parts were originally manufactured as a single permanent assembly and were not intended to be disassembled or separated. The "R" mark on the swivel, therefore, covers both parts.

A stamped lower band is correct for your rifle. It can also correctly have other stamped parts. The transition from milled to stamped parts was a phased process, not abrupt.

The meaning of the "E" is unknown, and has not been widely reported on other rifles.

Hope this helps. Happy Holidays!

J.B.

[Bob S]

I've had 2 Remington '03's come into my hands with the stamped lower band, but a "milled" attaching swivel. Both of the assemblies had the screw upset so that the band and swivels were not easily separable. "Original" or not, this was a good arrangement for a shooter because the stamped attaching swivels are hell on slings.

[John Beard]

I've had 2 Remington '03's come into my hands with the stamped lower band, but a "milled" attaching swivel. Both of the assemblies had the screw upset so that the band and swivels were not easily separable. "Original" or not, this was a good arrangement for a shooter because the stamped attaching swivels are hell on slings.

Seasons' Greetings!

Your hybrid band/swivel combinations were likely the product of an ingenious armorer somewhere. I feel very confident that they didn't leave the Remington factory that way. Remington's stamped parts came from subcontractors that specialized in sheet metal stampings. Remington didn't make them.

Hope this helps. Happy Holidays!

J.B.

[Bob S]

JB,

That makes sense to me.

[Doug Douglass]

Seasons' Greetings!

I assume from your description that the only stamped parts on your rifle are the lower band and the attached sling swivel. The two parts were originally manufactured as a single permanent assembly and were not intended to be disassembled or separated. The "R" mark on the swivel, therefore, covers both parts.

A stamped lower band is correct for your rifle. It can also correctly have other stamped parts. The transition from milled to stamped parts was a phased process, not abrupt.

The meaning of the "E" is unknown, and has not been widely reported on other rifles.



Hope this helps. Happy Holidays!

J.B.

Ahh, after adjusting my glasses the lower band is rivited to the sling swivel. I bought this 03 and others when no one cared about them and no one took the time to mess with matching parts to make a "correct rifle". I guess they are called survivors.

Happy New Year