1898 carbine SRS check?

[BradB]

Hi guys. Avid collector, infrequent poster. Can anyone check SRS for Model 1898 carbine 128074? Updated to 1901 fittings. Thanks in advance!

[Dick Hosmer]

There are NO known 128K (or 129K) specimens - jumps from 127744 (only 4 127K known) to 130058 (just 3 130K known)

Another "problem child", or, first example from an unknown "good" cluster, who knows? The upper end of the range is very spotty - there seem to be a few genuine examples in the 130/131/132K area.

An absolutely perfect illustration of the "1898C Curse". Easy to mock-up (fake) but nearly impossible to prove.

[5MadFarmers]

Likely right.

[BradB]

Thanks! This one is in about 95% condition. Beautiful niter blue on extractor. The only obvious change is a commercial front sight blade. The rear sight is the windage adjustable type with the "C" marking. Barrel is correct length, crown and matches rifle finish. Stock is late type with longer tip and retaining spring. Hump hand guard. It would cost too much to "retro".

[5MadFarmers]

It would cost too much to "retro".

Works both ways and that's the thing.

Take an early 1898 rifle. Locate an 1899 stock, handguard, and barrel. Turn the rifle into an "M-1898 carbine, altered to M-1899 format." For what gain? They're not that sought after. Which means it would be a pointless exercise. Thus your gun, being in 1899 format, is likely right. It's likely right as somebody faking the 1898 carbine would fake it to 1898 format.

In 1898 format it'd be questionable. In 1899 format it's more likely to be an 1898 carbine.

Kind of amusing isn't it?

[Dick Hosmer]

Brad, sounds like a very nice carbine, which might be "right". The "problem" is that you/we will probably never know for sure. You have apparently jumped a couple of the hurdles, in that (1) you have a believable, if unverifiable, serial number, and (2) that there are apparently no obvious signs of it having been cobbled together. The easy ones are the 3xxxxx bubbas!

5MF is still holding some cards close to his chest, as any good author with a book in the offing would/should do. He has some s/n data not yet published. He has exhaustively researched the bits and pieces and claims that he can positively ID feature(s) unique to the 1898C. Whether this only applies to one in the original short stock, never upgraded to M1899 standards, I do not know, but IIRC from hints dropped, it may refer to something in the receiver machining. IF that is the case, I am still in the dark as to why SA would make something "different" between rifle and carbine. So, we will just have to wait for his book.

As to the numbers, my files (which contain observations not included in SRS) have about 160 out of the 5000, spanning from 112684 to 134317. That is a laughable percentage, hardly worthy of comment, and it is very easy to see that there is a huge possibility for "correct" unrecorded arms to exist. FWIW, I have polled the range in increments of 1000, and even my limited sampling shows some trends. 119xxx has 52 entries, 120xxx has 49, and everything else is in single digits! The fact that no 128K or 129K carbines had yet surfaced could well be an anomaly - they could be plentiful, and right as rain. For those scoring at home, there are no 115xxx, 116xxx, 121xxx, 132xxx, or 134xxx specimens known, either.

Unless 5MF produces something truly earthshaking and definitive (and I truly hope he does) it still pretty much boils down to guesswork, and the value of any one specimen will be determined by an agreement between willing buyers and sellers. At this point, I still consider it a model which should be approached very carefully, and not one for which a great deal of money should be paid, or if one absolutely must have one, they should be aware that it might be hard to sell, down the road.

[5MadFarmers]

Brad, sounds like a very nice carbine, which might be "right". The "problem" is that you/we will probably never know for sure.

Probabilities is all we get. A gun listed in the SRS does not guarantee it is what's claimed. There is very little, if any guarantee that any given gun is what it is claimed to be. Misread serial? Mistranscribed serial? Mistranscribed model? The only guns that are about 100% certain are those sent away and never returned. The military museum in Holland and the one in Denmark have some nice US stuff. As did the museum at West Point at the turn of the century. They traded examples. Outside of them? Probabilities is all we get.


5MF is still holding some cards close to his chest

And will likely do so even from the book. The text is done and I'm not putting the methods in there.


He has exhaustively researched the bits and pieces and claims that he can positively ID feature(s) unique to the 1898C. Whether this only applies to one in the original short stock, never upgraded to M1899 standards,

An original.
An "original" which is restored.
Those two are easy.
Upgraded to 1899 standard kind of wave their own flag.


I do not know, but IIRC from hints dropped, it may refer to something in the receiver machining.

No.


So, we will just have to wait for his book.

I'm unlikely to detail the method. I gave that serious thought. I think Tom can do it also. We had a discussion and he peripherally mentioned the same method so I suspect he's aware of it. Once you see it a light bulb goes on. One of those OMG moments. I detail another with regards to the cadets. That one will light up everybody's bulb.


As to the numbers, my files (which contain observations not included in SRS) have about 160 out of the 5000, spanning from 112684 to 134317. That is a laughable percentage, hardly worthy of comment, and it is very easy to see that there is a huge possibility for "correct" unrecorded arms to exist. FWIW, I have polled the range in increments of 1000, and even my limited sampling shows some trends. 119xxx has 52 entries, 120xxx has 49, and everything else is in single digits! The fact that no 128K or 129K carbines had yet surfaced could well be an anomaly - they could be plentiful, and right as rain. For those scoring at home, there are no 115xxx, 116xxx, 121xxx, 132xxx, or 134xxx specimens known, either.

We should be careful in this. The guns are known to be scattered in serial. When a statement is made that a range is missing examples it gets set in stone. I'm aware of 5 in the 128K range that all pretty much pass the sniff test. Similarly Mook had a 132K listed and "M1903 rifle" showed nice pictures of his - 134K range and it looked very good.



Unless 5MF produces something truly earthshaking and definitive (and I truly hope he does) it still pretty much boils down to guesswork, and the value of any one specimen will be determined by an agreement between willing buyers and sellers. At this point, I still consider it a model which should be approached very carefully, and not one for which a great deal of money should be paid, or if one absolutely must have one, they should be aware that it might be hard to sell, down the road.

The 1898c in 1899c format is always a hard sell because people like the 1898c stock. Which, to me, is retarded as the ones in 1899c format are more likely to be what they appear to be.

[BradB]

Thanks again. Upcoming local auction; I will likely take a run at it for the right price. Pics if I win.