Mfg date of winchester m97 riot gun

[BOB IN AZ]

I have been looking for a WINCHESTER M97 RIOT issued to Uncle Sam either during WW1 or WW2. There is a website I just checked and the Weapon serial Number is
936044 stamped both on the bottom of the receiver and barrel. It has the ( u.s. ) and a ( flaming bomb ) on the left side of the receiver. The inspectors stock marking is a boxed [ W.B. ] over a CROSS CANNON ACCEPTANCE STAMP.

I believe there is, or should be a FLAMING BOMB and an Interlocking WP on the top of the barrel. I am going to ask for more pictures of the top of the barrel and the butt plate. He does say the butt plate is black with logo ( I assume Winchester logo ).

Can someone tell me the year of manufacture and if this looks like the real deal. It has some patina on the barrel but that really does not bother me.

The thing that confuses me, is in Mr. Canfields book on page 281 ( table 4 )
MODEL 1897 SERIAL NUMBERS CITED IN GOVERMENT DOCUMENTS.

It doesn't show this particular number, but the left hand column, there are numbers that are close to 936044 and it shows 97R ( riot gun in the legend ) with dates of 1942 USMC New River Training CTR ( SRS ).

Am I reading this info wrong?
I appeal to the resident experts in this field to shed some light on this. I have been wanting to trade my STEVENS M520 TRENCH towards a WINCHESTER 97 RIOT GUN of WW1 or WW2 period, but I don't know enough about what is real and what is not.
HELP POR FAVOR
BOB IN AZ
http://s661.photobucket.com/user/THIRDHERD1965/slideshow/MYPHOTOS/WRA97RIOT

They are asking $1950 and I feel my 95% STEVENS is worth more if I went to sell it, actually, I was offered the $2500 that I wanted for my trench, but didn't want to sell it because I don't know enough about Winchesters and what is original and what has been done to them to purchase outright. just my thoughts, or am I off base with the price on mine. I can send beaucoup photos of mine if it would help in determining a price.

[scosgt]

Several different issues here.
First of all, there is no official nomenclature of "trench". A 97R could be a trench gun. It just means short barrel.
The barrel will have a date stamp. You need a bright light. Shine the light on the barrel next to the receiver in the area the pump handle goes through the receiver. It will say 42

The barrel MUST have a bomb. Else it is not an original barrel. Replacements do not have the bomb.

From the pictures it looks good to me. The barrel does have the bomb, it does not have grooves and it is CYL, so yes it is a riot barrel.

The mag tube cap is correct for a riot gun.

97 riot guns are pretty rare, and were early issue so are almost always rough condition.

Value is in the mind of the buyer, but I think the gun is right.

[BOB IN AZ]

SCOSGT, thanks for taking time to answer my request. I do understand about the value thing. Please bare with me, I'm a Virgo. The dealer believes the shotgun is 1948 production, or at least that what he says. From what I read, or tried to understand, is not the serial number too high for a 1942 production riot gun. Are you stating ( in your remarks about looking for 42 on the barrel ), that this is a 1942 production?

I look at Canfield's remarks on pge 126, and he says WW2 riot guns fall into a 912,000 - 928,000 where as trench guns fall into a range of 930,000 - 950,000. It seems that this M97 riot is way out of the riot gun range. I understand that is wasn't a very strict sequence and there could be overlap, but 936,044 seems way out of range? just really confused. I do have to ask the owner to check for that date on the barrel.

[Tom Doniphon]

While most of the riot guns are in the lower serial number range as stated in Canfield's book, I have data on a couple of riots in the same serial number range as this one. In fact, they are slightly higher. But there are mostly trench guns in the 936,000 range.

The dealer is incorrect about the production date of the gun. He is probably using one of the published tables, most of which are off by several years during some time frames. A receiver with that serial number (i.e. 936044) would likely have been serialized around August 1942. Like SCOSGT says, look for the barrel date on the underside of the barrel near the receiver. It's probably 1942.

[BOB IN AZ]

THANKS TOM & SCOSGT, these serial number sequence drives me nuts. I can never get a handle on it. You guys have been around this shotgun business and I trust your valued knowledge. I am more comfortable around the M1 Rifle. Have a great year guys and I hope you don't mind if I tap your brains from time to time....bob in az

[scosgt]

What was explained to me years ago is this:
Winchester receivers, in particular the 97, were serial numbered, then taken home by the employees for hand polishing as piece work. When they came back, they were put into a bin for blueing and assembly into guns.
Thus there are gaps in serial numbers, since Harry might have had a two day turnaround and Joe might have done one a month. They are not in order.

They were just trying to confuse future collectors.

[BOB IN AZ]

Well bro, in my case, they succeeded. Let me ask you your thoughts on this M97. I understand about what is a good trade for one person, is not for another. Would you trade even up a near mint Stevens 520-30 trench for the M97 in question? I am going to do what I think is best for me, just your feedback would be something for me to consider.

If Tom reads this, I would like his feedback as well.

[BOB IN AZ]

Here is a photo display of my 520-30, would you trade " even up " for the M97 in question?

http://s661.photobucket.com/user/THIRDHERD1965/slideshow/MYPHOTOS/STEVENS-520-30

[BOB IN AZ]

WELL, IT WAS AN EXCERCISE IN MENTAL MASTURBATION, THE DAMN THING WAS SOLD. If there is anyone out there that can help me find a relative nice Winchester M97 riot gun, that would make my day. I can get the funds for my Stevens M520-30 ($2500.00 ) is all I have. The gun doesn't have to be mint, just correct and relative nice looking. OH yes, U.S. Issue WW1 or WW2 on the M97.
If you can help, email me at ( thirdherd1965@cox.net ) or call BOB (480) 580-2587

[scosgt]

AFAIK WWI riots are not confirmed to exist, and if they do, may not be marked.

WWII riots are one of the most rare military shotguns. I have had two Ithaca trench guns, but only one 97 riot, and it was in fair condition.

[ww2imposter]

AFAIK WWI riots are not confirmed to exist, and if they do, may not be marked.

WWII riots are one of the most rare military shotguns. I have had two Ithaca trench guns, but only one 97 riot, and it was in fair condition.

I have a 1917 dated M97 riot, although it is not martially marked WW1 era riots do exist.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/boomerangsrd/Win%20M97%20riot/010_zps1df590cb.jpg

[ww2imposter]

Here's one for you on gunbroker.....385022181
I think I can see an ordnance bomb on the top of the barrel also.

[scosgt]

I have a 1917 dated M97 riot, although it is not martially marked WW1 era riots do exist.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/boomerangsrd/Win%20M97%20riot/010_zps1df590cb.jpg

Beautiful gun. I totally agree. WWI era riots absolutely exist.
The question I was addressing was whether there were any military ones.
I have not seen anything definitive, and I have never seen one that was marked that appeared legit.

[scosgt]

Here's one for you on gunbroker.....385022181
I think I can see an ordnance bomb on the top of the barrel also.

The serial is VERY VERY pre WWI, and the bomb is from WWII. Mixmaster.

[Bruce Canfield]

The serial is VERY VERY pre WWI, and the bomb is from WWII. Mixmaster.

Martially marked WWI Model 97 riot guns are rare but do exist. The proper markings are depicted on Page 55 of my latest Combat Shotgun book. The markings are demonstrably different from the WWI martially marked Model 97 trench guns.

[Tom Doniphon]

There is, of course, the WWI martially marked 1897 riot gun pictured in Canfield's book. Personally, I've never seen one in person marked like that one.

And there were at least three contracts for riot guns (takedown types) during WWI. The Navy purchased some (I think it was about 300 guns), and there were two contracts for 12 guns each for the Signal Corps. Don't know if any of these were martially marked nor if the contacts were ever fulfilled. J. Moeller has the info on these.

[Bruce Canfield]

There is, of course, the WWI martially marked 1897 riot gun pictured in Canfield's book. Personally, I've never seen one in person marked like that one.

And there were at least three contracts for riot guns (takedown types) during WWI. The Navy purchased some (I think it was about 300 guns), and there were two contracts for 12 guns each for the Signal Corps. Don't know if any of these were martially marked nor if the contacts were ever fulfilled. J. Moeller has the info on these.

There is scant information on the subject of WWI military contract riot guns. It has not been determined if the guns from the three contracts were martially marked identically or if some were even marked at all. I've seen a few fake purported WWI vintage riot guns that had hand-stamped "flaming bomb" and "US" markings similiar to the martially marked WWI M1898 trench guns.

[scosgt]

There is scant information on the subject of WWI military contract riot guns. It has not been determined if the guns from the three contracts were martially marked identically or if some were even marked at all. I've seen a few fake purported WWI vintage riot guns that had hand-stamped "flaming bomb" and "US" markings similiar to the martially marked WWI M1898 trench guns.

And that is my problem too. I don't have your book, but in my travels over the years I never saw one that looked even remotely right. And we know there is lots of money in fakes.