1911 North American #5

[gbethu]

Fortunate to find this beauty. It was used in Clawson's big book as a reference for the North American model.

[Jon Field]

Another beauty!

[milgunsguy]

Where does one find something like that?

[gbethu]

I purchased it from a dealer I met at the Ohio Gun Collector's show in Cleveland recently.

[Promo]

If you don't mind me asking, of what price area are we talking about here?

[gbethu]

32K

[JimF]

How about a pic of the RIGHT side of the frame . . . Just above the trigger? --Jim

[gbethu]

looks like a K stamped above the trigger. Sorry still learning my camera.

[gbethu]

You can see the same view on page 203, figure 6-29 Clawson's Colt .45 Service Pistols (the big book).

[Tuna]

I seem to remember that the North American Arms guns had problems with their finish flaking off with time. Even the one kept under glass in a museum in Canada has this problem with it. But this one looks great. Thanks with sharing it with all of use as it's such a rare treat to see one.

[guns3545]

I seem to remember that the North American Arms guns had problems with their finish flaking off with time. Even the one kept under glass in a museum in Canada has this problem with it. But this one looks great. Thanks with sharing it with all of use as it's such a rare treat to see one.

I agree. Its nice to see one in such great condition.

My SN 34 certainly has that "been there; done that" appearance; maybe 30 percent original finish remaining. As I understand it, many of the NAA's found their way into service with the RCMP.

John

[milgunsguy]

The pistol looks like a reblule (soft corners on the metal, new sheen to it) with grips that look recently made.

See: Cool Gun Site North American Arms 1911 photo entitled: "Slide stop and trigger"

I open the Cool Gun Site photo on Google, then open the comparable photo from this posting on Google Chrome, then click back and forth.

[da gimp]

Looks original to me, with no evidence to my eyes of polishing/reblue...........but this is by far the best one of these I've ever seen.

[hsr]

One just sold today at auction for $31k and it was nowhere near as nice as yours

[joem]

32K

Very nice and way out of my price range. You're a lucky fellow.

[gbethu]

I was at that auction….the gun was about 25% and poor finish. The buyer paid the 31K PLUS an 18 to 20 % commission to the auction house.

[gbethu]

The pistol looks like a reblule (soft corners on the metal, new sheen to it) with grips that look recently made.

Can you imagine Chuck Clawson using a refinished gun in his reference books ????? If so, you probably don't know Chuck

[glindes]

Fortunate to find this beauty. It was used in Clawson's big book as a reference for the North American model.

I have a couple Clawsons...but sounds like one I don't have...Can you give details? Title, date, edition etc? 'Still learning here. Thanks Geoff in DE

[Johnny P]

I have a couple Clawsons...but sounds like one I don't have...Can you give details? Title, date, edition etc? 'Still learning here. Thanks Geoff in DE

How about photos of those Clawson pistols.

[gbethu]

I have a couple Clawsons...but sounds like one I don't have...Can you give details? Title, date, edition etc? 'Still learning here. Thanks Geoff in DE

Colt .45 Service Pistols, Models of 1911 and 1911A1 by Charles W. Clawson printed by Edwards Bros. , Ann Arbor, MI 48106. 429 pages

[milgunsguy]

Here's an interesting comparison:

See: Cool Gun Site North American Arms 1911 photo entitled: "Slide stop and trigger"

I open Google, go to to the Cool Gun Site, find the photo, then open Google Chrome, go to the Culver website, the click on the first photo from this posting. Then go back and forth between Google and Google Chrome.

[Johnny P]

Couldn't get that to work. These two pictures?

http://i44.tinypic.com/1z4wl6a.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/143ewqv.jpg

[gbethu]

serial #5 vs #87

[milgunsguy]

Thank you, Johnny P.

The metal on #5 lacks square corners where it should have them; it looks like it was polished prior to a reblue. The polishing rounded those corners.

Look at how rounded the metal is at each point of redirection in the machining of the parts.

For example: on the lower edge of the slide stop lever, at the forward end of the slide stop and takedown notches in the slide, at that curve in the flat side of the frame above and in front of the trigger guard, and where the flat side of the slide begins to curve upwards over the top of the pistol.

I am going to leave commenting on the slide markings to the real experts.

[KeithNyst]

For what it's worth, here is a link to an older GunsAmerica posting of #63 with many detail photos.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/957251118/Guns/Pistols/Colt-Automatic-Pistols/Colt_North_American_Arms_1911_In_very_good_Origina l_Condition.htm#

[PhillipM]

The remarkable part about it is the lack of an idiot scratch. Nice find and thanks for sharing.

[KeithNyst]

The remarkable part about it is the lack of an idiot scratch. Nice find and thanks for sharing.

It actually does have a pretty good scratch; see photo, bottom row, 2nd from left.

[gbethu]

The metal on #5 lacks square corners where it should have them

Ummmm …it does have them . That is a subjective and questionable opinion about the manufacturing capabilities in 1918 and your vision.
Yes you are the only one "see" them. Funny that Clawson and Julis Kosan never noticed……. What a couple of novices…. Glad to see there is one expert who can spot things from a crummy photograph that invalidates opinions of well informed
people who actually have had them in their hand to compare with other known models. What a bunch of dummies to have been sucked in to a Clawson opinion. Thanks for your insight. I sure have learned a lot by reading your post…..and it wasn't about the originality of #5.

[milgunsguy]

The pictures speak for themselves.

If you can't see the differences between #5 and the other NA picture that Mr. Peppers posted then it doesn't really matter whether they exist; you're happy.

[Rob Greer]

Here is another picture of the slide legend from #87, and one of #24 for comparison.

#87...
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/Rob_Greer/IMG_5094.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/Rob_Greer/media/IMG_5094.jpg.html)

...and #24
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/Rob_Greer/IMG_5107.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/Rob_Greer/media/IMG_5107.jpg.html)

[Scott Gahimer]

Here is the NAA slide address on #77
http://i43.tinypic.com/xdi9gm.jpg

Here is the serrated slide stop on #77
http://i39.tinypic.com/102ouux.jpg

Here is the slide serial number on #77
http://i39.tinypic.com/20kvl2o.jpg

Here is the slide serial number on #87
http://i39.tinypic.com/14e1cvq.jpg

Here is the slide serial number on #5
http://i42.tinypic.com/219dtes.jpg

Here is the NAA slide address and serrated slide stop on #63
http://i40.tinypic.com/334untw.jpg

[KeithNyst]

And here is #63s slide SN on pic linked to the GunAmerica posting I referred to previously
http://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/90212/957251118/pop_wm_2301679.jpg

And the slide stop on number 63
http://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/90212/957251118/pop_wm_2301678.jpg

[KeithNyst]

And this is #78 located in the museum at the citadal in Quebec City. Also, if you did not catch it, in this thread we've just seen a pairing of consecutive SNs ... this one and Scott's #77.
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/09/naa1911-1.jpg

[Johnny P]

The photos seem to bear out that all the original pistols have serifed serial numbers on the slide, with the same style serifed number on the trigger.

[westgard]

it most likely will also have the serial number stamped under the left grip somewhere...

[Johnny P]

The reference to the numbers was more to the style rather than the location, but is the number under the left grip the serif style also?

[Rob Greer]

The reference to the numbers was more to the style rather than the location, but is the number under the left grip the serif style also?

I will need to confirm, but I do believe all of the serial numbers are the same font.

[Scott Gahimer]

I will need to confirm, but I do believe all of the serial numbers are the same font.

Here, let me save you the trouble.
http://i39.tinypic.com/n2kffl.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2wpotmx.jpg

[Johnny P]

Yep, it sure is.

[westgard]

Hi Johnny, that was my only point, if you were checking to see if the were all the same font, that there was also one more spot to check!

[Scott Gahimer]

I show about 70 1024 x 768 images of NAA #77 in the Gallery at my site, accessible to subscribers only. However, I show most all the same images, but smaller, in a slide show on the home page for non-members.

[Rob Greer]

Here, let me save you the trouble.


Thanks for that!

#55 is a known example that I believe has changed hands sometime within the last year or so. I might have some pics of it at home... I'll have to hunt for them.

[KeithNyst]

Here's link to a pic of #55 that oldcanuck uploaded on a different site. Haven't seen posts from him for awhile; hope he's ok.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i284/bobgiven/FAC%20Related/Naa3.jpg

[Duane Hansen]

So number "5" is the only example that has been shown that doesn't have a serified serial number. It also has a checkered slide stop where all the others seem to be serrated. Is this because it is very early in production or ?

[Scott Gahimer]

No. 5 also has a checkered hammer with a different profile than any other known NAA pistols I am aware of. Most NAA hammers are smooth (no knurling at all). #87 has some checkering, a similar profile to #77...but is still machined differently. The hammers in numbers 77 and 78 are identical. They are both smooth and have exactly the same contours. NAA #80 at the recent Morphy auction was interesting. Like a few other known NAA pistols, the slide stop on it was void of serrations. They just didn't get machined into some of the pieces.

[Scott Gahimer]

Perhaps a better apples to apples comparison of slide address markings on #5 and #77. I straightened and sharpened the image of #5 provided by the OP and here images of approximately the same size.
NAA #5
http://i44.tinypic.com/kd0t2d.jpg
NAA #77
http://i42.tinypic.com/33kw669.jpg

[oldcanuck]

Here's link to a pic of #55 that oldcanuck uploaded on a different site. Haven't seen posts from him for awhile; hope he's ok.

I'm OK...but unfortunately my wife isn't. Here is a close up of the slide SN on 55. BTW the slide stop is serrated and the hammer is smooth on this example.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i284/bobgiven/FAC%20Related/SN55_zpsa104cc59.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/bobgiven/media/FAC%20Related/SN55_zpsa104cc59.jpg.html)

[SPEEDGUNNER]

I have no dog in this fight, and find this discussion interesting and informative. If you go back to the original photos posted by the new owner of #5, at first glance the pistol sure doesn't pass the smell test. Just something about the "look", it just isn't right for an almost 100yr old pistol. I hope for the OP's sake I am not looking at it correctly, but the discussion seems to be heading the same way...just no one is saying it.

[Scott Wilson]

If you look closely at the photos posted above by Scott Gahimer, you will notice that the CO. (as in company) is rather slanted and misshapen. That in itself would be strange for a roll mark. Given the number of examples shown so far, and the stark differences when compared to #5, I would strongly suspect it's originality.

[gbethu]

Thanks to you all for your views. As I bought from a reputable dealer, who used the same reference books as most of us, he ( and I) made a mistake. I received a full refund. Guess it really is helpful to use this forum.

[Johnny P]

I believed it served a more useful purpose in presenting the pistols problems rather than just simply telling you that it was a fake. It appears that you came to your own conclusion. The finish and slide marking are so bad that it amazes me that the original mechanic was successful in selling it much less going through multiple hands.

[Allen]

A very good discussion and picture comparison thread. You won't find this kind of detail in the reference books. Glad you didn't get burned.

[gbethu]

Thanks to you all for your views. As I bought from a reputable dealer, who used the same reference books as most of us, he ( and I) made a mistake. I received a full refund. Guess it really is helpful to use this forum.


I'm trying to replace the NAA (?) #5 with a fairly priced 75% original finish , North American 1911 . I haven't seen one that meets both conditions. Usually it's one or the other !!!! Any ideas would be welcomed. gordon bethune

[Promo]

Did anyone here already notice the NAA #40 in the upcoming Amoskeag Auction? Not that it's in my price range nor that I plan to bid on it, but as a M1911 novice it looked really nice to me.

[Scott Gahimer]

We always appreciate anyone bringing something like a NAA to our attention. As a novice, you appear to have a pretty good eye. I agree, based on the photos, it might be a good one. But obviously, things aren't always what they appear. But it sounds like you have a handle on that. Too many newbies jump in with both feet. That's risky, but at least on common examples, it's not the end of the world if they're wrong. But on the rare pieces, like NAA, Singer and a few other M1911 and M1911A1 sub-variations, it pays to do the homework first. For example, Singer barrels, stocks and magazines are nearly impossible to find, terribly expensive if found.

For those of us who are purist collectors, originality is priority one. Swapped out parts might be correct, but they'll never be original. Swapped parts make even the most significant collectibles less than desirable to many collectors. Hopefully, the bidders will verify authenticity on this one before plopping down the cash. It's a lot easier to buy smart than find out later.

[anton67]

It is funny how someone can be so condescending when someone else has an opinion in his post:
Ummmm …it does have them . That is a subjective and questionable opinion about the manufacturing capabilities in 1918 and your vision.
Yes you are the only one "see" them. Funny that Clawson and Julis Kosan never noticed……. What a couple of novices…. Glad to see there is one expert who can spot things from a crummy photograph that invalidates opinions of well informed
people who actually have had them in their hand to compare with other known models. What a bunch of dummies to have been sucked in to a Clawson opinion. Thanks for your insight. I sure have learned a lot by reading your post…..and it wasn't about the originality of #5.

And yet so humble in this post:
Thanks to you all for your views. As I bought from a reputable dealer, who used the same reference books as most of us, he ( and I) made a mistake. I received a full refund. Guess it really is helpful to use this forum.

And it only took him 50 posts to figure out there was a problem with the pistol.
Yet he proclaims to be such an expert.
Or if not he lays down thousands of dollars anyway.

[stan4]

I have not posted much---but I do enjoy the information. I hope I am doing this correctly.

For you experienced collectors---How do you identify a real Singer barrel and a real Singer Magazine? (Any pictures that show the details?)

Thanks

[stan4]

I have not posted much---but I do enjoy the information. I hope I am doing this correctly.

For you experienced collectors---How do you identify a real Singer barrel and a real Singer Magazine? (Any pictures that show the details?)

Thanks

[Johnny P]

If you are contemplating buying a Singer, best to seek the aid and advice of someone that knows the difference. When completely bogus markings can be applied to an entire pistol, there is no quick explanation on how to tell the difference.