Newbie with question on .45-70 ammo for the 1884 Trapdoor Springfield

[dmg4]

I've been scrounging for some .45-70 ammo in anticipation of trying out an 1884 Trapdoor that I am buying. My problem is that what I am reading on the various internet forums is all over the board with respect to the safety of smokeless powder ammo in these rifles. I'm mindful of a quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln: "The internet is not a reliable source for quotations".

So, what's the story here? Does any commercial ammo manufacturer make a load that the manufacturer explicitly states is safe to use in a trapdoor Springfield? That might seem like a tall order in today's lawyered-up society. Alternatively, do manufacturers of smokeless powder ammo explicitly state that that their products SHOULD NOT be used in trapdoor actions?

Handloading is no big issue. I can use black powder and pick up a Lee Loader kit for $25 dollars. A few pounds of lead bullets, and I'm good to go. However, what do you recommend to shoot in these guns?

[broom jockey]

Black powder is by far the safest. There are safe commercial loads out there, but, why? You cannot get enough BP in a 45-70 case to blow up a trapdoor. All my BP loads have to be compressed to get the bullet to seat. And, I don't use the bullet to do that!

[raymeketa]

The military and commercial ammunition from the late 1890s and into the 1900s was mostly loaded with smokeless. Most of today's major brand-name ammunition is perfectly safe for any of the Trapdoor/Sharps/Rolling Block type rifles. HANDLOADER magazine had a series on the 45-70 that included many safe loads for the weaker rifle actions using smokeless. Hornady's current manual gives smokeless loads specifically for the Trapdoor. There is absolutely no reason for using the dirty, messy, BP loads unless you are into the nostalgia thing.

My own favorite Trapdoor load is a 350 grain Hornady JRN and 40 grains of 3031. This gives ballistics very near identical to the original loads from Frankford Arsenal in the 1870s and 1880s.

Old Abe Lincoln was right. Don't believe most of what you read on the Internet.

[older than dirt]

I second raymeketa. I`ve been shooting smokeless & jacketed bullet in my 1873 TD for years & no problems of any kind. As long as it locks up properly & is in good condition, do it to it & have fun.

[psteinmayer]

Remington has a 45-70 round with a 405 grain jacketed bullet. It's safe, accurate, and for the most part, available where ever you buy every other rifle ammo. Winchester has a similar round. Avoid Buffalo Bore, as their ammo is loaded to a much higher pressure for use in modern rifles.

[dmg4]

Thanks. Now, what's the story on the use of jacketed bullets? This seems to be another area of dispute in these rifles. I've read comments indicating no harm, and those claiming certain damage. The "damaging" camp cites "soft" steel used in the barrels. It seems that even the softest steel would stand up to copper or gilding metal jackets. Is hardness of the jacket really the issue, or is there something regarding the resistance of the jacketed bullet to deformation in the barrel that results in low accuracy or abnormal pressures and velocity?

[Major Tom]

Don't know about jacketed bullets cause I don't shootem. I have loaded 16.5gr of Trail Boss powder behind a 405gr lead bullet. You have to used a filler between powder and bullet otherwise it's a bomb. I would think if you used a load that did not exceed 1200 fps, it might be safe.

[raymeketa]

I use nothing but jacketed bullets. Mostly the Hornady 350 gr RN. I doubt if I'll shoot my rifle enough to wear out the barrel simply from the jackets. Bullets do not wear out barrels. Hot gasses do.

Another Internet myth, IMHO.

Ray
http://i42.tinypic.com/uvajb.png

[ronc54]

Don't know about jacketed bullets cause I don't shootem. I have loaded 16.5gr of Trail Boss powder behind a 405gr lead bullet. You have to used a filler between powder and bullet otherwise it's a bomb. I would think if you used a load that did not exceed 1200 fps, it might be safe.

Interesting, I am planning to load for my 1884 also and was reading this thread. I do plan to use lead bullets and looked up the loading tables for trail boss. They specifically state "DO NOT USE ANY FILLER MATERIAL WITH THESE LOADS, as fillers can alter pressure and velocities decidedly". They list loads for 45-70 here is the link:

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

I always thought the filler made sense with these loads in rifle cases what is the correct way?

[older than dirt]

I use nothing but jacketed bullets. Mostly the Hornady 350 gr RN. I doubt if I'll shoot my rifle enough to wear out the barrel simply from the jackets. Bullets do not wear out barrels. Hot gasses do.

Another Internet myth, IMHO.


Ray
http://i42.tinypic.com/uvajb.png

I second raymeketa on this one also. Like I said before, I`ve been shooting jacketed bullets in my 1873 TD (600+ rounds) for over 4 years & it`s still as accurate today as it was back then. Copper is much softer then the steel barrel & so far the rifling still starts at the chamber were it should. So there is no hot gases etching it.

[Mark Daiute]

There are many good loads that do not require filler.

My pet load is 22.5 grains of 4759 under a lead 405 grain bullet.

[carbineone1964]

I use 27 grains IMR 3031. 400 grain flat lead bullet. I am no marksman with my trapdoor by far yet as it is pretty new to me.. I have only shot it one time before the cold set in. But I did around a 4 inch group at the 100 yard range..I know I and the rifle can do much better..

I thought I read in this thread somewhere about using Trail Boss. That stuff in my opinion is one of the worst powders you could put in a Trapdoor cartridge..

I reload using a LEE classic Handloader that you use with a hammer. I love those things, I wish they made them in a wider variety of Calibers though..

[adrians]

There are many good loads that do not require filler.

My pet load is 22.5 grains of 4759 under a lead 405 grain bullet.

+1 ^^^^^^.

I also like 23.0 grns of 4198 under the Ideal 457124 bullet (365gn +/_),

A nice plinking load......:banana100:

[John Sukey]

BE AWARE that there is commercial 45-70 ammunition that is NOT SAFE for use in trapdoors, intended for lever action Winchesters and is marked as such on the box!
In any case Black powder is what the trapdoor is designed for. Cleanup is NOT all that difficult. Just a kettle full of hot water and a funnel in the arse end.

[ronc54]

Don't mean to hijack your thread dmg but my questions are along the same line. Anyone have a smokeless load that duplicates the original using a 500 gr. round nose lead bullet. Also any source for this bullet?

[raymeketa]

37 - 38 grains of 3031 is a good load for the 500 grain bullet and duplicates the ballistics of the 1882 cartridge. The only place I know to get bullets is to get a mould and cast them yourself. Don't make too many of them. After a few shots they are no longer fun.

Ray

[sdkrag]

Rapine made a good 500 gr. mold. It closely duplicates the original Frankford bullets. Lee 405 does the same with the hollow base.

[adrians]

I have the ideal 457125 mold and it drop a 500gr bullet that resembles the original.

[13Echo]

The SAECO 881 bullet is a faithful copy of the 500gr govt bullet. It casts at 0.460" and is a better fit for most trapdoors. Buffalo Arms also sells a mould that is also good copy of the same bullet. The Lyman version has grown heavier and changed a bit from the original and casts at 0.458". You may find your rifle shoots better with the larger diameter bullet. Mine certainly does. The 500gr bullet at original velocities will get your attention but really isn't that punishing, especially if you wear a Past type shoulder pad.

Jerry Liles

[ronc54]

Anyone use Meister cast bullets out of Ozark, MO ? They have both 405 gr. and a 500 gr round nose flat point. They will cast the 500 gr. at either .458 or .459. It is special order but still seems reasonable at about $150 for 500 delivered. What I am really looking for is a load that matches the ballistics of the original load out to about 500 yards that the sight is calibrated for, maybe there is a 405 gr load that is close enough.

[steved66]

Check out the Shooter's Page on the Trapdoorcollector website for good info on load data (and how to use the Buffington sight)

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[carbineone1964]

37 - 38 grains of 3031 is a good load for the 500 grain bullet and duplicates the ballistics of the 1882 cartridge. The only place I know to get bullets is to get a mould and cast them yourself. Don't make too many of them. After a few shots they are no longer fun.

Ray

WOW, you use that much 3031? I would be somewhat frightened at that much..Seems to be a pretty stout load..