Need advice on my 1896 for cast bullet matches

[Pentz]

My 1896 has a pristine .301/.308 bore, and on a good day, bright sunshine on the targets, I can shoot MOA at 100 yards. However, it hits 6 to 7 inches to the right at that distance, and my only recourse is to hold off. The reality of winter shooting here in Washington is dim light and fog during our morning matches, and the hold-off is really problematic with my 65-year old eyes. I do use a diopter on my glasses.

I do not want to move up to modified military, and I want to preserve this rifle's originality. My load of a .309 311299 at 208gr. over 16/2400 can't shoot to its potential with the 1896 sight. Windage adjustment is sorely needed. Is it acceptable to swap in a 1902 rear sight and handguard, reserving the original 1896 rear sight and handguard for restoration?

My best dim-light, foggy 100 yd. MR31 target enclosed for laughs..

[Bob S]

Windage adjustment is sorely needed. Is it acceptable to swap in a 1902 rear sight and handguard, reserving the original 1896 rear sight and handguard for restoration?



You may find Krags of all models fitted with any model of rear sight ... including M1898 rifles with the M1892 rear sight! It would be perfectly acceptable (and "legal" under CMP rules) to fit any model rear sight (rifle sight) to your M1896 rifle.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[dave]

I agree, and think the best choice would be the 1901 sight, very similar to the '03 Springfield sight. Repro handgaurd can be had which will cut down on cost and increase availiblty.

[Dick Hosmer]

Which brings up another question - must a rifle used in competition be 100% complete? Is a handguard even required?

[Pentz]

Dick, modified military is basically military action and barrel with scope. Anything else goes. Unmodified is as-issued, original and complete.

Dave: as I understand it the rules allow the peep to be opened to .10 inch, and I'd like the option. Also, I think the windage adjustment is a bit friendlier but I will defer to experience.

[Bob S]

Dick, modified military is basically military action and barrel with scope. Anything else goes. Unmodified is as-issued, original and complete.

That's CBA rules.


Dave: as I understand it the rules allow the peep to be opened to .10 inch, and I'd like the option. Also, I think the windage adjustment is a bit friendlier but I will defer to experience.

Once you know your elevation zero for your rifle and ammunition, you will rarely change it in a string of fire. OTOH, windage changes can be needed frequently during a string of fire, and the M1898/1902 sights are more user-friendly, precise and repeatable in that regard ... once you figure out how to account for backlash. None of this is really relevant for firing at 200 yards on the huge SR target ... but if you decide to shoot over the full course, you'll be chasing spotters at 600 yards, and you will really appreciate the screw-driven windage adjustment!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

Which brings up another question - must a rifle used in competition be 100% complete? Is a handguard even required?

Dick, for CMP Vintage Rules, yes and yes. For NRA rules (in Match Rifle category), you can do anything you please, as long as it's safe. I have a Redfield 70KT on the back and a St. Marie globe on the front of one of my 1898 long rifles. Sort of the modern version of Dr. Hudson's match rifle :) And no part of the original rifle has been harmed in this transformation ... 100% reversible.

[madsenshooter]

I'm with Bob on the 1902 vs 1901 sight for windage changes, and you'd be within CBA rules with it, lots of 96s got upgraded to other sights during their service, so that fits "As issued". With either the 1901 or 1902 you'd also need the taller .410" front blade. Good group considering the necessity of Kentucky windage. In the CBA there's also the Modified Military, Iron Sight class. A Krag with a no gunsmith receiver sight would fit in there. I'll be watching the Fouling Shot for your progress.

[dave]

[Dave: as I understand it the rules allow the peep to be opened to .10 inch, and I'd like the option. Also, I think the windage adjustment is a bit friendlier but I will defer to experience.[/QUOTE]

Peep sights were designed to be close to the eye, when out on the barrel they are next to useless, hole just too small at thet distance.

[madsenshooter]

I find the notch in the 98 and 02 sights to be too small also. I opened up the notch of the 02 sight on my parkerized 92/96 wide enough that I can center the front sight stud in the notch, leaving the blade sticking up when I can see it. Recently I put another 92/96 together and put a 98 sight on it that someone had already cut a V notch into, and I use it in the same manner in combination with a .070" front blade. That makes for a much better sight picture. With the 1901 sight, movement of the windage can be something of a guess, it's hard for my 56yr old eyes to see the marks without stopping to put on my glasses. With the 02 or 98 sight, provided there's not a lot of slack in the screw, it's a simple turn of the knob in the direction you want the point of impact to go. I put a no wind zero mark on the windage knob so I know how far I've turned it. There was an Army order someone posted about that allowed modification of the sighting notch, so again it would still be as issued for CBA purposes and also within the CMP rules which specifically allow modifications. Pentz, if you get a chance to get an Eagan mold, jump on it. I don't think there's any beating a nose-pour bullet.

[Kragrifle]

Hi Pentz
Why not sell me the 1896 which I like for the Benecia Arsenal rebuild ? Then buy a later 1898 with a 1901 sight for match shooting. ?
Mike :)

[Pentz]

If I ever find another Krag with a fresh-out-of-the-arsenal barrel like mine I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I carry my muzzle guage with me to every show and every other Krag seen has swallowed the thing, and the bores are as dark as the Amazon. Some day, if ever, when I sell it will be through this board, though. Thanks, Mike.

[Pentz]

Thanks for the great advice, all. I'm a lurker over at Cast Boolits as well, and will keep an eye out for an Eagan mold. Our next match is next month, so will post results then.
Mike aka Pentz

[madsenshooter]

Hudson and Pope complained a lot about barrel groove diameter and it was more tightly controlled after the invention of the star gage around 1905. Even those that weren't gauged through were likely quickly measured. Still there would have been an allowable tolerance, can't have too many barrels in the scrap pile!

[gnoahhh]

But you can have them used as re-bar in old Army installations. Local legend has thousands of Krag barrels used as such in the concrete dam at Fort Ritchie in Maryland. (I suspect there are a bunch of '03 and Trapdoor barrels in there too!)

[Mark Daiute]

I'll buck the trend and recommend the 1901 rear sight and no, I don't find the peep useless, at all, even if it is out there on the barrel. I'd recommend that sight in a heartbeat and I'd troll ebay and Gunbroker for an original handguard rather than the repro's. My go-too rifle sported the repo until I got wise, via Dick's advise and got an original. Funny thing, the original was no more expensive than the repo but it looks a hell of a lot better!

What's that tool called that will change the elevation one minute at a time? Hatcher Tool? Year before last fellow I was squadded with, Lee McKinney, had one and adjusted my sight for me and it was the cat's pajamas.

[madsenshooter]

Here's another one of the elevation adjusters for the 03, that I'm told will work as is with the 1901 sight. The original maker of the tool sold narrower feet for Krag usage. http://www.sbsdistributing.com/index.php?pr=Sight_Tools

[Mark Daiute]

Nice, Bob! If I find a spare $130.00 kicking around I'll pick one of these up.

[Pentz]

I wonder if the depth measuring blade of a caliper can be used in a pinch? Hold the end of the rail against the top of the sight leaf, and measure down with the blade? A bit clumsy perhaps, but once dialed in the sight blade can be marked.

[madsenshooter]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. You'd certainly have time to fiddle with it, if the CBA matches in WA are ran anything like the ones in MI that I've been to. Nice fancy digital ones with a big display are available at a good price. I have one but didn't do enough shooting with the 01 sight enough to use it as you state, but I did fiddle with it some at home, which I'm now remembering, yes it'd be a way. I wouldn't want to mess with it at an NRA Highpower match though.

[Parashooter]

http://i43.tinypic.com/1zcn215.jpg

I've long thought this little unit listed in the 1939 Shooter's Bible was the most practical and easy-to-use design ever - but I've never actually seen or handled one. Wish somebody would make them for $3.75. Even adjusted for inflation since 1939 that's "only" $62.88.

(Extra points for spotting the math error in the "Directions . . .")

[Pentz]

Wrong moa for 200 yd.

[Parashooter]

There you go! 375 extra points awarded to the sharp-eyed gentleman in Vancouver.

(Points have no value, tangible, intangible, or otherwise, and may not be redeemed for anything except credit towards an honorary Doctor of Perspicacity degree to be awarded upon written application submitted by candidate within 2.5 days of karmic graduation status adjustment.)

[Bob S]

... and you win the coveted Gold Handled Bedpan Award!

Resp'y,
Bob S.