Real Springfield Armory 1911 NRA?

[rcmkhm]

Gentlemen,
I have been offered a Springfield Armory 1911 Pistol that is purportedly one of the scarce "NRA" marked pistols as a trade. Notwithstanding the immaculate finish, which I'm not convinced is original (just too perfect), I wanted to see what the group thought about the "N.R.A." stamp. I've compared it with the one in the NRA Museum (just from comparing photos) and from some other supposedly legitimate and verified NRA 1911s on the internet. To me, this particular stamp does not look like the others. The lettering is too tall/thin and the top, rounded part of the "R" seems too small. I suspect it is a fake but wanted to check with the group.
Thanks, Chip

[Duane Hansen]

Besides being completely refinished and having new reproduction grip panels, the NRA markings are Bogus. All known legit examples of NRA marked Springfield and Colt 1911 pistols are marked quite similarly to each other and with very distinct lettering. And this Ain't one of them! Not much, if any, collectors value left in this one. I would pass on it.

[rcmkhm]

Yep, that's what I was afraid of but didn't want to do anything until I checked with the group. Thanks Duane. Chip

[Johnny P]

Photo not very sharp, but marking appears pantographed.

[rcmkhm]

Johnny, were the originals roll stamped? I read somewhere that some may have even been hand stamped but none of the supposedly verified ones I saw online appeared to be hand done. The dies looked worn towards the bottom in several but they looked neat and spaced out nice.

[Johnny P]

As far as I know they were hand stamped. The NRA Model 1911 was taken from stock, and most show a "halo" around the stamping from being stamped after finish. I just don't see the pistol being disassembled and fixtured to have a roll stamp applied. Also, the NRA stamp is not always in the exact same place from pistol to pistol.

[rcmkhm]

Well this one definitely didn't quite look right. Thanks for the information. Chip

[gbethu]

Well this one definitely didn't quite look right. Thanks for the information. Chip

This serial number doesn't appear on any list of known Springfield marked 1911's. Extremely doubtful authentic NRA marked pistol.

[Scott Gahimer]

I would not recommend relying on any of the various lists of observed pistols, as those observations were generally made by various people, with no requirement for them being knowledgeable. The only way observations mean anything is if the same people examined the pistols, and he was qualified to access the pistol(s). A lot of listings are nothing more than secondhand information passed on by somebody's friend who knew a guy that went to the gun show, and while there, heard about a pistol.

Here is a pistol that is shown in Mr. Clawson's book as an example of authentic N.R.A. marked pistol.
http://i42.tinypic.com/24y1x83.jpg
Here is another N.R.A. SA M1911 with the exact same marking shown in my Classifieds.
http://i44.tinypic.com/15meng3.jpg

[Johnny P]

This is a 1903 NRA Springfield sold in 1916. This metal was niter blued, and shows the classic halo around the mark. It too was not stamped evenly.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2uptipx.jpg

[gbethu]

Clawson's list is the one I used to determine this gun was PROBABLY not authenic. Nothing I know is 100 % infalliable but the opinions of others MAY be helpful. I don't know anyone who was there when they selected, stamped and shipped the guns...... No one has authenic records that I'm aware of. If you find the serial number on one or more respected lists, it "may" be authenic. If you CAN'T find it on any list...maybe you should rethink the purchase.... common sense comes into play.

[kwill]

This pistol is on my worthless list and has been for some time as a fake. I've seen it offered for sale several times over the years, most recently on GunsAmerica by MisterLuger for $7,000.

[Scott Gahimer]

The "Clawson lists" for observed N.R.A., Singer and other pistols, do not only reflect pistols observed by Mr. Clawson, but also the contributions of others over several decades. The contributions of others is the problem. Many of those contributions date back to years before his first book came out, before there was ever digital photography or the electronic means to send those photos. There was limited knowledge then, and very few people really knew the pistols well enough to authenticate anything. They simply reported what they saw, or sometimes what someone else reportedly saw.

Using printed information such as lists, or factory letters, to authenticate anything is risky, at best. Even if this pistol had been on Mr. Clawson's list, or any other list for that matter, it would not be anymore authentic than it is. I have examined several pistols with factory letters that were nothing more than humped up turds. Most recently, someone paid a lot of money for a rare Colt conversion kit to convert a SM Ace to .45 acp. The kit was numbered U47, and although the item did not have a factory letter with it, anyone could order and receive a letter for kit U47.

The same auction had a Super .38 pistol with an extremely low serial number that sold for a high price. It may have had a factory letter, too. Factory letter or not, that pistol was refinished, the serial number had been illegally altered and many of the markings had been pantographed. I only examined about 25-30 items at that preview, but several of the items did not inspect well and had similar stories.

I completely agree one should use every resource he has to authenticate items prior to purchasing. However, speaking of common sense, the most obvious thing one should do is look at the item. If he is not seasoned enough to authenticate, I believe he should seek help from someone who is, rather than relying on lists, letters or historical records.

Today, we have much better opportunities to get good answers. Even if one's expert or go-to guy can't hold the pistol in hand, he could have received the same digital image posted by the OP. I don't believe anything can be authenticated as original with just images. However, many items can easily be identified as bogus, refinished, incorrect with reasonably good images. The one image provided in this case was enough.

[rcmkhm]

Thanks, gentlemen. Good information. The story on this pistol was it was in the estate of a longtime Montana state senator, advanced gun collector, lots of his stuff in Cody Museum, etc., etc. That's why I stick to "buy the gun, not the story." It's funny how some of the same pistols kind of float around like ether popping up on the radar screen from time to time. Chip

[Shooter5]

When were you a Rakkasan?

[rcmkhm]

1-187 from 91-94. You?

[Shooter5]

Wasn't but a good buddy was for OIF 1 and 2. Good unit.

[rcmkhm]

I was playing in OIF 3 but not with the Rakkasans unfortunately. Just a staff puke.

[Shooter5]

Ah, sir: "just" an (fill in the blank) does not apply in the service of our country. You have done as much and more than most; you are the 1%. From clerk to general, medic to grunt, no position is non-essential - all have their valued place. And yes, the staff, while perhaps unheralded, wins the fight with sound plans and competent administration. Go see the struggling counterparts in Country X where a staff doesn't work as well as the US mil and you will find chaos and inefficiency. Thank you for your service.

[ignats]

A lot of people got hurt by Bernie Madoff because of his reputation as a top man in the investment world. Just because a person is an expert or advanced collector, doesn't mean necessarily mean that he not a goniff. I can think of one that's highly knowledgeable and quite personable as well. However, over the years, his first name has become generic with flim-flam.