Photos of VFW, Bannerman, School Rifles

[BruceHMX]

I am doing some research on a rifle I recently purchased. It has not arrived so all I know now it's an 1898. Barrel and stock cut but not to a carbine length. More like an 03. Has the forearm and bayonet lug. Appears to be an 03 front sight. When it gets here will see if an 03 or Krag bayonet fit.

Would like to see other photos of these type of modified rifles.

Was a CMP gun. So I would assume it came from the Army as a VFW return. I have done tons of research all over the web. The only problem is very few photos.

I basically bought it to shoot. I own a minty 1898 safe queen full rifle that's not been touched by a bubba.

Are the CMP Krags returns from VFW's? If it's a VFW gun who did the work on these? Would they get them from the Army then send them to be shortened?

Were school rifles treated just like VFW rifles? If schools received them from the Army did they have to turn them in once upgraded?

I have a small 50 yard range off my deck. I'm going to try some 100gr cast bullets with 10gr of Unique and see what it does.

[psteinmayer]

Some of the more knowledgeable members will ring in here (I'm certainly not an expert)... but I'm pretty sure if it's an 1898 and has a cut barrel with an 03' style banded front sight, it wasn't done by Springfield or an Arsenal. There are a plethora of cutoff Krags running around out there, some done more professionally than others (bubba vs professional gunsmith). Some have the stock shortened... some have it sported... some have it replaced with an aftermarket sporter stock.

Uploading some pictures will help!

[kragluver]

I believe that is correct - if it has an '03 front sight, it was done by bubba or Bannerman, et-al. Definitely not a school rifle. School rifles and "NRA Carbines" would still have original brazed-on front sight. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is correct.

[m1903rifle]

Some of the CMP Krags came from the Hollywood movie studios. They were generally in worse condition than the VFW/American Legion rifles. I saw lots of them at the CMP-South store and they were mixed together in the racks. The NRA carbines were made from rifles with real carbine stocks. The barrels were cut to 22" and M1903 front sights were installed. Krag "School Rifles" looked like the Phillipine Constabulary rifles but were of inferior workmanship. I'm not sure where the School Rifles were made, but the Constabulary rifles were made in US facilities and were basically Krag carbines with the front of the barrels turned down to accept a bayonet ( and the rifle-looking stock and upper band installed )

[BruceHMX]

Some of the CMP Krags came from the Hollywood movie studios. They were generally in worse condition than the VFW/American Legion rifles. I saw lots of them at the CMP-South store and they were mixed together in the racks. The NRA carbines were made from rifles with real carbine stocks. The barrels were cut to 22" and M1903 front sights were installed. Krag "School Rifles" looked like the Phillipine Constabulary rifles but were of inferior workmanship. I'm not sure where the School Rifles were made, but the Constabulary rifles were made in US facilities and were basically Krag carbines with the front of the barrels turned down to accept a bayonet ( and the rifle-looking stock and upper band installed )

That is really neat. I thought the CMP only received rifles from DOD sources? I didn't know that. This one does look like a Constabulary. I also know that's it's not. But it looks like an 03. Can't wait to get it. I take it they made these school rifles for them to drill with and never shoot?

So out of all these who did the work? Like the Hollywood guns?

[madsenshooter]

Can't wait to see your pics. Bannerman shoe horned some Krag rifles in to 03 stocks, which might be where the looks of your rifle comes from. We'll see.

[Dick Hosmer]

It has always been my understanding that the school rifles were largely made at SA. It is the Constabulary rifles which are murky, though it is presumed they were converted at the Manila Ordnance Depot. AFAIK, no one (aside from National Geographic, and they only accidentally) has ever presented a picture of a PCR, let alone a physical specimen.

[JBinIll]

It has always been my understanding that the school rifles were largely made at SA. It is the Constabulary rifles which are murky, though it is presumed they were converted at the Manila Ordnance Depot. AFAIK, no one (aside from National Geographic, and they only accidentally) has ever presented a picture of a PCR, let alone a physical specimen.

Do you know what issue that picture is in?I got a CD set of all the issues for X-mas a couple of years ago and have never looked at them.

[Dick Hosmer]

No, I do not (I have one of those CD sets too, and have only looked at it once or twice!).

I was first exposed to the Filipino pics when a small child - from a bound volume (8.5 x 11 or so) belonging to my grandparents, entitled "Scenes from Many Lands", or some such. Still have the book, but cannot lay my hands on it immediately - but, they would have to date from the 30s or before. Quite a surprise to see them again in Brophy (Mallory? Both?)

[m1903rifle]

That is really neat. I thought the CMP only received rifles from DOD sources? I didn't know that. This one does look like a Constabulary. I also know that's it's not. But it looks like an 03. Can't wait to get it. I take it they made these school rifles for them to drill with and never shoot?

So out of all these who did the work? Like the Hollywood guns?

The CMP traded M1903A3 Drill rifles to Hollywood for the Krags. The story was that the Krags had been used in the Rough Riders movie ( and many movies before that ) and that the 03's were used in the Pacific series.

[11mm]

It is quite possible that some commercial firms did the shortening for sale to drill teams. I had an 1898 Krag back in the 70's which had been shortened to 26 inches and the bayonet band with its lug put back on. It had also been chrome or nickel plated. A front sight had been dovetailed into the barrel and was kind of like an old Winchester lever action sight that had been modified to be smooth, maybe so that it would not catch on clothing. I do not recall if the barrel had been turned for a bayonet, but the parts were all Krag, except the front sight. I had the chrome plating removed. The rifle shot well enough, given the limitations of the front sight. I may be able to get pictures, as a friend may still have it.
It is not the only chrome plated Krag I have seen.
I doubt if any Government arsenal or repair facility would have chrome plated rifles, but of course they might have if the "customer" was a Government entity.

[dave]

Some of the CMP Krags came from the Hollywood movie studios. They were generally in worse condition than the VFW/American Legion rifles. I saw lots of them at the CMP-South store and they were mixed together in the racks. The NRA carbines were made from rifles with real carbine stocks. The barrels were cut to 22" and M1903 front sights were installed. Krag "School Rifles" looked like the Phillipine Constabulary rifles but were of inferior workmanship. I'm not sure where the School Rifles were made, but the Constabulary rifles were made in US facilities and were basically Krag carbines with the front of the barrels turned down to accept a bayonet ( and the rifle-looking stock and upper band installed )

The studios owned those rifles (or the costume companies did) and these were not turned in to the CMP. CMP rifles only came back from places they were "loaned" to, VFW, Amer. Legion, etc. School rifles were carbines, 1899's for the most part, with cut down rifles stocks as were PC rifles. Any of these seen in the US are school rifles, not likly to be PCR's. They were all done at arsenals.
When VFW's were later loaned 03's, and even before, many cut their Krags down to match, 24". Had a friend who once stored rifles from a VFW which lost their building. Some were 1917's which had barrel cut to 24". The Krags were also cut and chromed. PCR were converted in the Islands (as stated above) and school rifles in the US, SR's were very hi quality, which is one of the ways used to ID them as genuine.
If your Krag came from the CMP it is a loaner returned from somewhere, maybe even a college OCS unit, VFW, AL, etc.

[Dick Hosmer]

FWIW, here is a pic of my school gun. It was done at SA (small block JFC cartouche) and the serial is 227713. Has a 22" barrel, turned down for bayonet - thus the rifle sight protector fits.

Just noticed that s/n is wrong on the copyright bug - ignore that, will fix later.

[dave]

The CMP traded M1903A3 Drill rifles to Hollywood for the Krags. The story was that the Krags had been used in the Rough Riders movie ( and many movies before that ) and that the 03's were used in the Pacific series.

Love those 'stories'!

[Dick Hosmer]

Here's another - which may be an exageration - from an old friend (long since passed) who did Western "extra" work back in the day. He claimed that frequently, when you checked into the property department in the morning, you were issued a "pistol", as opposed to "Colt SAA #XXXX", and that there was a brisk trade in substituting Italian replicas for the real thing, come evening. While decidedly immoral/illegal, there is a certain amount of satisfaction in thinking that some valuable pieces may have thus escaped the Hollywood meat grinder.

[BruceHMX]

Rifle arrived today. Serial number is 481911. 1898 with a 1901 rear sight. Who ever cut the stock down it is professional. Has a side cartouche and circle P. No other markings. Has top hand guard. Front sight appears to be an 1903. Krag or 03 bayonet will fit and lock. Bore is nice. Gun appears to have been stored a long time. Needs a good cleaning. Will post photos once we get some nice sunny weather.

[Kragrifle]

If you want a real Krag, buy one. Much cheaper than creating one?

[BruceHMX]

If you want a real Krag, buy one. Much cheaper than creating one?

I actually have several "real" Krags. The school rifles interest me as a cool variation. Sorry to have asked the question.

[butlersrangers]

The University of Michigan became the recipient in 1986 of papers and photos of Tiffany Bernard Williams (1893-1986). Tiffany graduated from Kemper Military School (Booneville, Mo.) in 1914 and was a commissioned officer (1914-17) in the Philippine Constabulary. He served in the mountain district of North Central Luzon. His pictures are viewable on-line and Krags in use at Kemper Mil. School and by various ethnic groups in the Philippine Constabulary, can be seen in good detail. (Google search: MLibrary Image Collections, find 'Philippine Photographs Digital Archive', select 'Tiffany Williams photograph collection'. There are approx. 274 photos. The Parker Hitt collection also has great photos from the 1904 Moro War). I have posted some pictures on the Krag Collector's Assoc. Forum. I have not figured out how to do it here.

[butlersrangers]

Some Tiffany Williams photos:

[Dick Hosmer]

I actually have several "real" Krags. The school rifles interest me as a cool variation. Sorry to have asked the question.

I'm sorry you are sorry - I think this has been a very interesting thread. All responses, save perhaps #17 which really wasn't that bad, have been respectful and informative.

[lyman]

I'm sorry you are sorry - I think this has been a very interesting thread. All responses, save perhaps #17 which really wasn't that bad, have been respectful and informative.

+1

I have a 1903 Springfield that I'm sure is a bannerman gun, and am always interested in threads about the different weapons cobbled together by them,
(1903 low number action, unmarked and not an 03 barrel, 03 stock, krag rear sight, 1917 or P14 triggerguard,,,)

[jon_norstog]

Coyote buys an island gets into the milsurp business

jn

[Rick B]

The CMP traded M1903A3 Drill rifles to Hollywood for the Krags. The story was that the Krags had been used in the Rough Riders movie ( and many movies before that ) and that the 03's were used in the Pacific series.

R.K.O. is from CMP. FOX came out of a gun shop and is a 5 digit.. Rick B
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