Krag ID

[Battis]

I recently bought a Springfield Krag and I'm trying to figure out if it's a carbine, a cut-down carbine or a cut-down rifle. The stock has an old repair, the sights have been replaced with "modern" sights, there's a rubber stock pad (I removed it for some pics). There's what looks like a patch where a saddle ring had been. From the bolt face to the muzzle is 22".
I'll let the pics describe it better. Whatever it is, I like it.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4745_zps02170b30.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4746_zps717fdfdb.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4747_zps93d442b4.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4748_zps92dbe571.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4751_zpsfa52f29d.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4752_zps1c928dc1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4765_zps9af3d497.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4773_zps73bac559.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4781_zps27540513.jpg

[madsenshooter]

SRS check for 75050 too, if someone will. Receiver would have been made in Sept of 1897 Battis.

[JOHN42768]

No hits. Closest listing 75022 96R G.L. MACCLELLAN. John

[Dick Hosmer]

Appears to be the remains of an 1896 Carbine. At least the stock is, and the muzzle crown looks to be correct.

Closest carbine number (it's in a mixed area - but mostly carbines) is 75101.

[madsenshooter]

He put up a couple more pics here Dick, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?229633-Springfield-Krag-30-40 I was hoping one of our experts would chime in, thanks. In the view he put up of the right side of the nose, I think I see a filled band spring slot, and the lightening cut says carbine stock. There's a mess on the outside that almost looks like a spliced on nose, but there's no indication of a splice in the barrel channel. I know 5MF has some more detailed serial # data. Looks like the fella got the real deal for $150! Oh, by mixed, you mean that they stopped with the blocks and started making both rifles and carbines at the same time, I'm assuming. This one is right between what Poyer says is the highest # for 96 carbine, 75000, and what you posted, 75101. So I'm guessing it is a carbine. Bet the front sight dovetail is under that ramp.

[Dick Hosmer]

It's definitely a 96C stock, due to the short grasping grooves, and filled bar mortise, but there has been mischief of some sort at the tip.

No, I do not mean they "stopped the blocks", but there are occasional aberrations. 5MF can explain it in a more scholarly way. Poyer is just plain wrong on the 1896 numbering, of course.

I'd back your bet about the front sight - no reason to think otherwise, lotta miles on that crown.

[jon_norstog]

Looks like it had a rough life, post-service. What's the barrel like?


jn

[Battis]

No pitting in the bore, very good rifling. I was surprised at how bad that pic made the muzzle look.

[5MadFarmers]

A couple of years ago I went to a gun show, rare thing for me, and as I was walking past some tables I noticed a Krag bayonet in a picket pin carrier. The seller, a younger gent, told me it was the Cavalry version. I just smiled and started walking away. His partner said to him: "he doesn't believe you." The seller, genuinely curious, asked me "why not?" Bah, might as well. "That leather item you have it in is a picket pin carrier. A picket pin was a hammer looking thing with a pointy end they could stick in the prairie and tie a horse to." He digested that, somewhat warily, and asked about the numbers of bayonets found in them. "Reverse it. If that is the Cavalry version it would be carried by a Cavalry trooper right? They had sabers - not bayonets. Have you ever seen a carbine with a bayonet mount? Where would they mount it?" He laughed and asked me if I wanted to buy a bayonet in a picket pin carrier.

Logic. "Grasping grooves." Presumably, the story has it, used to grasp the rifle for a bayonet thrust. Except carbines don't have bayonets. "Lightening cuts" Dick, "lightening cuts." I know - getting people to not call those "grasping grooves" will be a swim against the tide. Especially given we lose the handiness of calling the internal cuts "lightening cuts."

External lightening cuts.
Internal lightening cuts.

Use to reduce the weight of the piece while providing the required dimensions to be kept. There.

The exterior lightening cuts on the 1896 and 1898 carbines are shorter as the barrel band sits closer to the receiver. This is why I'll have to have an M-1892 carbine stock special made. The lightening cuts on that were "carbine length" so cutting down a rifle stock won't work. An early M-1896 carbine stock with the nose snipped off and a new forearm grafted on would work as the early 1896 stock has the right comb. As we all know early M-1896 carbines stocks are floating around in truly generous numbers.

That's a carbine stock. The lightening cuts are key. Review the distance from the barrel bands to the lightening cuts in the attached picture and then review OP's stock. Carbine.

The receivers didn't travel down the line in order. Think of laundry carts. I dump receivers in a laundry cart and they wheel it to the next station. LIFO right? The transition from rifles to carbines, and then back to rifles, results in the following

All rifles.
Rifles and Carbines
All carbines
Rifles and Carbines
All rifles.

Mixed blocks. One at every transition.

75010 is dead center in the second block of M-1896 carbines. The receiver is a carbine.

Lightening cuts. Defines the early stocks as carbines.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2013/carbs.png

[madsenshooter]

5, there ought to be a limit to how many 96 carbines any one person can have, so some other folks can have one too! Yes, I'm jealous, shopping with the computer doesn't work out good for me, I need to get out more, find me a bargain like Battis did. Speaking of 5's, did you mean to type 75050 in the next to last sentence? Thanks for your input.

[5MadFarmers]

Yes, 75050. Block runs from 67K to 80K more or less. 75050 is deep in all carbine territory with the caveat that there is no such thing as outliers can be anywhere within. Strangely it doesn't work the other way as outlier carbines don't appear in the rifle blocks like that. I'd chock that up to numbers - the carbine production was less.

That picture is missing a gun. No, I don't mean "I have another" as I have more carbines than that - that picture is in order but I notice it's missing one and I know one is a stand in. I'll have to fix that stand in. The one missing from the picture is at the bottom. Hint - there is an order there. See if you can tell what it is. Hint: one of the "1899s" is an 1896c and one is an 1898c in later stocks.

[5MadFarmers]

Ok, it's not really missing one. One is dual use and covers that. I guess I should stick bake up another so it's obvious. The long stock 1896 has the 1902 carbine sight and thus I didn't include the 1899 with the 1902c sight at the bottom. I should.

[5MadFarmers]

Hijacked OP's thread. So it goes....

I'd rather not buy guns on-line either but that's the way it's going. 5 years ago I could still take them out of local auctions with local competition only. Proxibid killed that. Which doesn't disturb me greatly as the other trend aligned with that and I was screwed anyway. If I was shopping for "value" I'd never buy a gun on-line. Local auctions are the best deal - even with Proxibid competition. The problem is I'd have 200 1898 rifles and no carbines. Once the easy guns are found you cross over the the threshold from "smart" to "stupid." I'm well into "stupid" at this point. In fact I've moved to retardville and, having done so well, I'm now Mayor. Nice Cape Cod house with the white picket fence and pink plastic flamingos in the yard. You may have seen it as you drove by if you live here.

Attending local auctions and estate sales only would result in a steady stream of guns at value prices. Indefinitely. I'd not control what popped up and the acquisition would be "whatever was a good deal." That route, logically, would also have me buying cars and selling them immediately. Thus it would be both lucrative and a job. The other half gave me a rule: "you can buy whatever you want but you can't buy for resale." Thus it's a hobby only and not a job.

Once you have the 1898r, 1896r, 1896c, 1899c what's next? 1898c perhaps? One of those won't pop up locally. Once the easy guns are done, and if you're stupid enough to want a set, you have to pay what they get as they don't pop up locally. The further you travel down that path the more retarded you get. A couple of months ago I made a competitive bid on a Parkhurst. Was runner up in fact. If I'd have taken it I would have had to find a claw-foot tub and put that in the yard, on end, with a plastic statue inside. In my nice little Mayor of Retardville land. That amount of money for a stupid Krag is beyond retarded right?

So I'm buying online. But that was just what got me to retard land. When I decided to do the book I discovered that, for complete coverage, I'd have to buy one of everything Krag related. Did I want one of everything Krag related? No. Thus I'm now paying premium prices for Krag stuff I don't really want, it's for the book, anyway. That's when they elected me Mayor.

When the book is done I'll no longer be Mayor of Retardville as I'll buy the CW carbines I'm missing. So still residing in Retardville but no longer Mayor as I'll be buying stuff I want.

[5MadFarmers]

Windbag. If the punctuation is a tad off it's "too much data entry makes for sore fingers" rather than drink.

This isn't really Krag related and may offend some. Then again if you are unable to poke at yourself somebody else should....

Knowing that "shopping for sets" instead of "shopping for value" resulted in my move to Retardville was, as mentioned, followed by "paying premium for items I really didn't want anyway" and thus the office of Mayor. After I typed that the next steps hit me and I don't know if I should be pleased or terrified.

What about that person who did take the Parkhurst? Is it possible they really didn't want it either but were "shopping for sets." While I, as runner up, am Mayor of Retardville wouldn't that make them the Governor of Retardland? Thus I still have a chance to unseat them and move into that position right? Perhaps pay "PC" prices for what is, I know, really just a school gun for wee lads.

Then it inverts. Everything inverts in life. Repeatedly.

What would that current Governor of Retardland have to do to keep their seat? Better yet, what would they have to do to move up? I know what I'd need to do to unseat them but what would they have to do to unseat the next higher office?

That's when it hit me. It's impossible. The next higher seat is the President of the Retard Republic. Which, looking at the current incumbent in the White House, is an impossible task. I mean, who could manage to be retarded enough to unseat that one in mental deficiency.

Then I remember that in no less than two elections about 1/2 of the voters actually voted for him.

Mayor of Retardville is thus dead center of the population. At least half of the population of the Republic have proven they're more retarded than me. Ergo "Mayor of Retardville" is a hard office to defend. So excuse me while I go out and water my astroturf lawn and feed my pink plastic Flamingos. It'll be easy to convince people to help me in my chores as at least half have proven they're even more retarded than me.

Sorry about that.... It is kind of amusing depending on which side you're on.

[Dick Hosmer]

Well, you're definitely more retarded than me! I didn't find it necessary to obtain one from every block with each possible sight, or whatever. I think I have at least one of everything except a Parkhurst, and that won't happen unless the garage sale quality level sees a big increase - not paying retail for one of those.

Rifles: 92R early (1892R), 92R late (1896R), 92/96R (1901R), 96R (1896R), M96R (1901R), M98R (1902R)

Carbines: 95C (1896C), 96C (1896C), M96C (1896C), M96Cx99 (1901C), M98C (1896C), M99C early (1898C), M99C late (1901C)

Other: School gun (1901C), .22GP (1901R), M98BoOF (1902C), M98BoOF (1901BR)

Come to think of it, that IS pretty retarded, too! And, there are a few duplicates, not considered as part of "the collection". And then there are the TDs . . . . . . . .

[madsenshooter]

Hi jack ok, he got the info he needed. I've decided I really don't need anymore, I can only shoot one at a time anyway. In fact, I need to start some assembly of the pieces I've picked up, I have a grandson who doesn't have one and is reputed to be a crack shot.

[psteinmayer]

Hell Bob, Will that K31 to me!

[5MadFarmers]

Well, you're definitely more retarded than me!

Hence the position of Mayor.


I didn't find it necessary to obtain one from every block with each possible sight, or whatever. I think I have at least one of everything except a Parkhurst, and that won't happen unless the garage sale quality level sees a big increase - not paying retail for one of those.

I probably should have just ran for Governor and shelled out the money for it. If another pops up before summer I probably will. The Governor's mansion is quite nice as I hear it.


Rifles: 92R early (1892R), 92R late (1896R), 92/96R (1901R), 96R (1896R), M96R (1901R), M98R (1902R)

Carbines: 95C (1896C), 96C (1896C), M96C (1896C), M96Cx99 (1901C), M98C (1896C), M99C early (1898C), M99C late (1901C)

Other: School gun (1901C), .22GP (1901R), M98BoOF (1902C), M98BoOF (1901BR)


The accepted models will have some additions and some clarification when the book hits paper. Another scarce model will appear. I already have one.


Come to think of it, that IS pretty retarded, too! And, there are a few duplicates, not considered as part of "the collection". And then there are the TDs . . . . . . . .

Yup, that's another town. You're Mayor there. I don't even own a .50/70 trapdoor at this time. Then again campaign funds roll in all the time. :icon_scratch:

I have a Redfield front ramp sight for the Krag, in the box, but it's slightly different from the one that gun sports. The one I have mentions it's for a 26" barrel so they intend a snip before installation. While the barrel on OP's gun is crowned he'd have to measure length to see if it's a snipped and crowned rifle barrel or a carbine barrel. Given the receiver I'd guess the latter. In which event it'd be interesting to see if removing that ramp sight turns up the original base or if it was fried off. If fried the barrel gets less interesting.

The stock is rough, the hand guard is missing, the stock is cracked and heavily sanded, the front sight base might be gone altogether, and the rear sight is also missing. So a pretty degraded specimen. That said it's a carbine. For what he paid he has no worries.

___________________

The picture:
First block: 95, 96, M96
Second block: M96, M96 in long nose stock with 1902 sight.
M98, M98 in 99 stock,
M99 first block, M99 second block, M99 third block sans humped guard, M99 third block with hump.

One could add the 96c/long stock with 1896 and 1901 sight, 98C with 1902 sight, and 99c with 1902 so there is room for growth. I could back up that last without effort and likely will for the book as it clarifies the picture me thinks.

The 1898c with long stock and 96c sight is likely invalid. I gave that some thought and the more I though about it the more true it became but I forget why.

Let's not forget the 99 in PC format with JFC cartouche. Have one.

[Parashooter]

. . . I have a Redfield front ramp sight for the Krag, in the box, but it's slightly different from the one that gun sports. . .

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4747_zps93d442b4.jpg

The one posted above looks like the old Lyman streamlined ramp w/band, missing its slip-on hood -

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA==/z/hAkAAOxyhotSL49X/$T2eC16hHJIUFHH(+rFObBSL49WP2TQ~~60_3.JPG

[Battis]

It's a Lyman sight. How does it attach to the barrel?

[Parashooter]

Same way a ring goes on a finger.

[jon_norstog]

A couple of years ago I went to a gun show, rare thing for me, and as I was walking past some tables I noticed a Krag bayonet in a picket pin carrier. The seller, a younger gent, told me it was the Cavalry version. I just smiled and started walking away. His partner said to him: "he doesn't believe you." The seller, genuinely curious, asked me "why not?" Bah, might as well. "That leather item you have it in is a picket pin carrier. A picket pin was a hammer looking thing with a pointy end they could stick in the prairie and tie a horse to." He digested that, somewhat warily, and asked about the numbers of bayonets found in them. "Reverse it. If that is the Cavalry version it would be carried by a Cavalry trooper right? They had sabers - not bayonets. Have you ever seen a carbine with a bayonet mount? Where would they mount it?" He laughed and asked me if I wanted to buy a bayonet in a picket pin carrier.

Logic. "Grasping grooves." Presumably, the story has it, used to grasp the rifle for a bayonet thrust. Except carbines don't have bayonets. "Lightening cuts" Dick, "lightening cuts." I know - getting people to not call those "grasping grooves" will be a swim against the tide. Especially given we lose the handiness of calling the internal cuts "lightening cuts."

External lightening cuts.
Internal lightening cuts.

Use to reduce the weight of the piece while providing the required dimensions to be kept. There.

The exterior lightening cuts on the 1896 and 1898 carbines are shorter as the barrel band sits closer to the receiver. This is why I'll have to have an M-1892 carbine stock special made. The lightening cuts on that were "carbine length" so cutting down a rifle stock won't work. An early M-1896 carbine stock with the nose snipped off and a new forearm grafted on would work as the early 1896 stock has the right comb. As we all know early M-1896 carbines stocks are floating around in truly generous numbers.

That's a carbine stock. The lightening cuts are key. Review the distance from the barrel bands to the lightening cuts in the attached picture and then review OP's stock. Carbine.

The receivers didn't travel down the line in order. Think of laundry carts. I dump receivers in a laundry cart and they wheel it to the next station. LIFO right? The transition from rifles to carbines, and then back to rifles, results in the following

All rifles.
Rifles and Carbines
All carbines
Rifles and Carbines
All rifles.

Mixed blocks. One at every transition.

75010 is dead center in the second block of M-1896 carbines. The receiver is a carbine.

Lightening cuts. Defines the early stocks as carbines.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2013/carbs.png

You're missing the carbine (arsenal? field?) modification with sling swivels.

jn

[madsenshooter]

Hell Bob, Will that K31 to me!

There might be a problem with that, my great great grandmother lived to be 101, died in the early 60s. I think I may have inherited those longevity genes, and I've learned a bit about feeding them.

[Bob S]

It's a Lyman sight. How does it attach to the barrel?

There is probably a set screw in the dovetail, under the sight blade. The procedure would be to drive the sight base onto the barrel and once aligned vertically, drill through the hole for the set screw to create a dimple in the barrel, then install and tighten the set screw. The screw head would be counterbored below the dovetail so that the sight blade could be pushed into the dovetail.

If you should ever need to drift the sight blade, beg, borrow or steal a Williams (or similar) sight pusher so you don't put any stress on the base. If you try to drift with a hammer and punch, you could snap the base off.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[madsenshooter]

Yea, that's the way. Bob, you're up too late!