Krag tropical web sling. how to attach?

[Ernie]

Hi
I got a hopefully original Mills Krag tropical web sling. Can anyone tell me how this properly attaches to the rifle? Has hooks on each end and brass keepers. It reminds me of a Brit sling only longer and has keepers.

I have done google and forum searches and can find the sling but nothing telling me how to properly install it.

Thanks for any help.
ERNIE

[Dick Hosmer]

You have to pinch the webbing to force it into the hooks - NOT easy with a stiff one. Here is how I have it rigged on one of my rifles.

[Ernie]

Thanks Dick, that is very helpful. On mine the hooks are more narrow than the web, is that normal?

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes, they have to be a bit smaller so as to pass through the keepers - which can ALSO be quite frustrating. Plan your attack to make sure you don't have to waste effort undoing/redoing a wrong move. When installed, the webbing does not lay flat inside the hook, but remains crimped at the sides and pooched up in the center. Also, decide whether or not you want the sling to remain on the rifle, long term - this is not an easy on-off process.

[madsenshooter]

I bought one of the reproductions of this sling. It obviously wasn't a good idea. Maybe I'll use it as a strap for something else.

[alibi]

Here is a fairly complete explanation for the trial web slings that I posted in the Mills equipment web site and invite your attention to:
http://millswebbing.proboards.com/thread/29/mills-canteen-haversack-rifle-strap

As you can see from the text the sling swivals were modified to accomodate the slings.

[Dick Hosmer]

Were only the original 3900 slings/straps made then? They are not common. I was aware that they were supposedly interchangeable between more than one item.

[JOHN42768]

Thank you Alibi for another source of useful information. John

[soldierofhistory1898]

Madsenshooter, please read pm. Gray

[madsenshooter]

I will when I get one!

[alibi]

According to the documents in the Chief of Ordnance correspondence files maintained by the National Archives, the Army only acquired the 3900 canteen/haversack straps and rifle slings. It may be that Mills manufactured more of the strap-slings for commercial sales or possibly for other U.S. services or even foreign sales. It is obvious that the British M1909 web rifle sling was developed from this project, and interesting to note how much more successful the web strap was in U.K. service. The only documents I researched where those in the Chief of Ordnance correspondence files and there was no indication of any others manufactured by Mills.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for the added info. They cannot be too common as they seldom show up.

[alibi]

The few examples I've seen, including the example I acquired that the brass double hooks had been added probably by Bannerman, all seem to be in unused or unissued condition. My take on this is that when the field trial ended the strap/slings were returned to a stateside arsenal where they were declared obsolete surplus and sold. It is likely Bannerman bought the lot and marketed the unused examples which probably didn't draw much sales. So the examples still in existence are the few that Bannerman sold, are still around, and each one could probably tell a different story. It appears that Bannerman marketed the strap/slings as equipment carrying straps as there is no mention in the sales catalogs of use as small arms slings.

I believe this is a page from a Bannerman catalog in which it is mentioned the straps are for canteen or haversack, and are offered as a set with a canteen.

41878

It is likely the "C" sling swivels on the rifle M1898 used during the trial, were replaced with standard sling swivels, and were probably discarded locally. The Manila Ordnance Depot reported cleaning and repairing canteens and probably removed the "C" hooks and replaced them with standard triangular loops on serviceable canteens. For my project I would like to photograph an original canteen with the "C" hooks or obtain an image captured at Rock Island Arsenal or in the Philippines of the modified canteen.

[Dick Hosmer]

. . . . It is likely the "C" sling swivels on the rifle M1898 used during the trial, were replaced with standard sling swivels, and were probably discarded locally. . .

What "C" sling swivels? Did you find a reference to a Krag with special swivels?

[alibi]

The document attached is the earliest of 34 pages related to the subject strap-slings that I have. I will send all of the documents to any person interested in reviewing the original correspondence which was located in the National Archives, Record Group 156 (Chief of Ordnance correspondence files), Entry 28, file O.O.36116. These are public documents and have no restriction to publication. Several of these documents mention the special sling swivels required for attachment of the slings, but I think this two page document adequately describes the swivels. There was no illustrations provided in any of the documents, only written descriptions as contained in the document attached.
42009
42010

[Dick Hosmer]

Many thanks, but, as I read it, the attachment says nothing about altering the swivels on the rifle. As I am sure you are aware, fitting to the rifle using solid swivels is possible, though not convenient. The worst part is adjusting the length of the sling once it is on the rifle. What IS interesting is that the correrspondence does clearly include the rifle - thus spiking the arguments of some that the item was intended solely for the canteen, haversack, atc.

[alibi]

Well the first paragraph of the previous attachment states "swivels for alteration at the Springfield Armory." Here's another document that says much the same thing in more detail, and mentions that the stacking swivel would have to be altered also to be used to attach the sling for shooting standing.
42013
42014

To me it's clear that Mills sent 1300 of the "slings" to Springfield Armory to accompany swivels altered with 9/16inch openings. Here is a few pages of the endorsements correspondence between the Chief of Ordnance and the CO Springfield Armory that may be of interest:
42016
42017
42018

[butlersrangers]

'alibi' - Thanks for your responses and sharing your research and documentation. It is very interesting that the swivels intended to go with the 1,300 Mills & Orndorff canvass gun slings called for having a 9/16 inch opening (like a stacking swivel, but, a wider swivel and wider opening). The butt-swivel, with a 9/16" opening would be quite unique and noticeable. The open swivel-loop would avoid the need to 'thread' the sling through conventional swivels.

The correspondence also states that the Mills gun-sling, Haversack strap and canteen strap were identical and made in equal numbers (1,300) and cost 24 cents ea.

The suggestion of replacing the front 'stacking-swivel' with one of greater width and a 9/16 inch opening, (about 3/16" greater than the standard 'stacking-swivel), is interesting. The Mills Co. rationale was that the sling could be attached to the 'stacking-swivel' and foot for target practice. I presume this was for added stability in the Standing Position or possibly Kneeling Position? (I can't visualize anything else). It was an era when shooting sling use was in its infancy and the Back Position still had advocates.

In Testing, I suspect 'open' sling-swivel loops, (if indeed these existed in large numbers and were tried out in the field), caught on brush and other obstacles. It is likely they were as much a problem as the tendency for the Mills Sling to curl and give a narrow area of support on the shoulder.

Once again, thanks for sharing!

[alibi]

Attached is the summary of the reports of the field trial. I did not notice that any of the reports mentioned the open swivels catching on anything, but there is plenty of confirmation of your other suppositions regarding the slings, however keep in mind the reports were regarding the use as rifle slings, and as canteen and haversack straps:

42025
42026

[Dick Hosmer]

Very interesting - thank you for posting. Clearly this material was missed by ALL of the previous Krag writers (Mallory, Brophy, Poyer, Farmer, et al) unless Joe Poyer has it in his just-released revised edition, which I've not seen.

I'd guess that any/all swivels modified for the tests are long gone - have never seen, or heard of - such items.

[butlersrangers]

I suppose further documentation is needed to verify that the Krag 'open' sling-swivels were actually produced in significant numbers and were part of the sling tests or trials.

The Mills & Orndorff rifle slings and the haversack & canteen straps did not work out well in U.S. testing.

It is interesting, however, that the rifle sling with some revision, (shorter, no keepers, and wider 'end-hooks'), was amazingly successful for the British on Lee-Enfields, with conventional sling-swivels. The British version served in two world wars under harsh conditions. It is a serviceable 'carry strap' and can be utilized as a shooting sling. I suppose there are many subtle differences in stitching, weave, and general construction, between the Krag and L-E versions.

FWIW - The idea was good. It was a matter of execution.