Collector-related Rock Island M1903 Data

[Chuck Russell]

Hope this is of interest

[John Beard]

Thanks for the data file!

I have copied it. I can also appreciate the effort expended in gathering it. I, too, have extensive data bases and data files. And they eat up quite a chunk of time keeping them "fed."

Thanks again for the data file!

J.B.

[jimmyzwei]

I share J.B.'s sentiments

looks like I have some of my weekend filled now comparing the data to what I already have also

jimmyZwei

[Fred]

383,045 auction
Rock Island
BARREL- RIA 10-18 P underside
BOLT- straight handle
STOCK- block DAL in rectangle; block circled P; marked TENN right side at level of receiver; front and rear stock bolts
HAND GUARD- high hump with sighting clearance
TRIGGER- thick profile, not serrated
CUT-OFF- block letters
REAR SIGHT- dished windage and elevation screws Rifle looks blued; is this one of the 8000 barrel/receiver sets sent to Springfield Armory in late 1918 (could explain the Springfield cartouche and block P)? Gunbroker 1-2010


The above rifle is of interest to me because it closely matches the appearance of my Rock Island rifle that I strongly suspect (with the understanding that I'm certainly Not an expert) was put together in 1918 at Springfield Armory. I hadn't heard mention before of 8,000 barrel/receiver sets sent to Springfield Armory in 1918, but If that's correct, then my rifle too fits that bill. Below are the specifics of my rifle, along with some photos.


268563 One of the Double Heat Treated receivers within the single heat treated range.
Rock Island
BARREL- RIA 7-18 P underside along with C108
Bolt straight handle, C8 on safety lug. Double Heat treated
STOCK- letter L stamped on left side of wrist, No other cartouche present. block circle P, front and rear stock bolts
BUTT PLATE- smooth, nickel plated oiler found within butt trap
HAND GUARD- high hump with sighting clearance, fixturing slot
TRIGGER- thick profile, serrated
CUT OFF- serif letters, underside polished
SAFETY- block letters
REAR SIGHT- dished windage and elevation screws Rifle appears blued.


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland9_zps0ed1cfc1.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland9_zps0ed1cfc1.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland16_zps2af2e2ae.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland16_zps2af2e2ae.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland14_zps94935a58.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland14_zps94935a58.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland3_zps4f741437.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland3_zps4f741437.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland20_zps9ff5869a.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland20_zps9ff5869a.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss26_zps34407b76.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss26_zps34407b76.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss9_zps3b13f59c.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss9_zps3b13f59c.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss11_zps50f2448b.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss11_zps50f2448b.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss17_zpsa367f337.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss17_zpsa367f337.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss22_zps6214f80d.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss22_zps6214f80d.jpg.html)

[Fred]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss25_zps9f211d45.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss25_zps9f211d45.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss24_zps598c95d1.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss24_zps598c95d1.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockI8_zps8b702a74.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockI8_zps8b702a74.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockI7_zpsf03ae117.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockI7_zpsf03ae117.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss23_zpsb44c6033.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss23_zpsb44c6033.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss23_zpsb44c6033.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss23_zpsb44c6033.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss14_zps4aee486b.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss14_zps4aee486b.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss13_zps3e30220a.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss13_zps3e30220a.jpg.html)

[Chuck Russell]

Fred, I was waiting for more advanced collectors to make comments on your Rock Island, sn 268,563. To paraphrase Will Rogers " All I know is what I read in the.....books". Page 74 of Ferris' "Rock Island Rifle M1903" says under the heading "Rock Island Rifles Assembled at Springfield": "These rifles have Rock Island barrels and receivers, and RI-stamped stocks. However, the final inspector cartouches are those of Springfield personnel: W.J.S, J.E.S, and E.H.D. (Elbert H. Dewey). The initials are in rectangles, without dates. The proof mark on the wrist would be that of Springfield, most likely and encircled block "P" ".
Your rifle has the encircled block "P". Rock Island retained the encircled script "P" during WW1 production. Your stock's cartouche is an "L" , one of the recognized inspector stamps from the 1917-18 period at Rock Island, up to sn 268,601 when cartouches were changed from a single letter to initials over year date ("Rock Island Rifle...", Ferris p.78). I'm not sure how to explain the single initial cartouche (Rock Island) and the circled block "P" (Springfield) on your rifle's stock. The shape of the numeral "7" on the leaf, from what I've been told, is the Springfield Armory style. It would have been helpful to have known if Rock Island sn 383,045 had the R.I. marked on the stock's tip. I'm unsure how to explain the combination of the initial cartouche and block "P" proof on your stock and if the rifle is one of the 8,000.
I have a Springfield M1903 that retains the original barrel/receiver combination (late 1914), that was probably refurbished at Rock Island in the 1917-18 period. The stock was replaced with one marked R.I. at the tip and the single initial "A" for a cartouche. Oddly, the proof is a block "P" stamped perfectly on top of a script "P". I have never been able to figure that out. The rifle is in excellent, plus condition as refurbished during the WW1 period.

[Fred]

Chuck, thanks for the feed back. To me, my Rock Island 03 has the feel and look of being in its current configuration for a very long time. I'm inclined to think that it's in its original configuration. That would mean that it was indeed assembled at Springfield Armory in 1918. However, I'm not any sort of an expert on 1903's. John Beard told me something about this rifle that sounds Very plausible. He said that although it might not have happened very much, a military unit could've been issued rifles that were then disassembled into separate piles, cleaned and then reassembled again from the separate piles of individual parts. This could very well be what happened. John also told me that the use of a single letter for a cartouche was also done by Springfield Armory. Could be this rifle's stock didn't come from Rock Island after all. Beats me. However I just have a strong feeling that the rifle is in its original configuration. I've seen countless 1903's over the four decades that I've been messing with and studying them and to me, this rifle just has the look and feel of being in its original configuration. Of course all of that in one hand and a dollar in the other will buy me a cheeseburger. I'm still very open to any other ideas concerning this rifle from anyone.
I'd like to hear or read more about the 8,000 barreled receivers that were sent from Rock Island to Springfield. Was that information in Nick's book? I have that book now and will go through it thoroughly to locate it if it is. Sounds interesting!
Good job and Thank you Chuck for all of the detailed information on the various rifles! I'll post some photo's and information of my 1920 National Match 03 on a separate thread for you to study and make note of.
Please, if anybody else has any thoughts, ideas and opinions on my Rock Island rifle, share them here!
It's interesting that my rifle might've been one of the last 37 or 38 rifles stamped with the single letter for a cartouche. I'm not sure if they were done so in consecutively numbered order though. Anyway, it's a great looking rifle and I think I was fortunate in seeing and buying it!

[Chuck Russell]

I know what you mean about a weapon having a "feel and look...". Whether it's an '03, M1 rifle or carbine, I can spot one from 20 feet away at a gun show and know I've got to pick it up.

[Fred]

Yep, a lot of it happens to be how the Fit and Finnish looks. One of the things I think this particular Rock Island has going for it is that all of its parts are from the same time period. Where has it been since 1918? Well, judging from its appearance, I think maybe in some National Guard or maybe Law Enforcement arms room. Maybe even an ROTC unit. For the record, the rifle originally came with a Rock Island D1 Single Heat Treated bolt body whose finish was slightly greenish. Since the rifle has a double heat treated receiver and a 7-18 RIA barrel, I don't think that it would have been issued with a single heat treated bolt. Being the one part of the rifle that could be easily switched around, it was. What was the original bolt? Well, one that was double heat treated for starters. Rock Island? If ONE of the reasons these barreled receivers were assembled at Springfield was to test the fit and interchangeability of Rock Island receivers and Springfield bolts, then of course the rifles logically would have had Springfield double heat treated bolts installed. So, I just obtained a suitable Springfield Armory, C8, double heat treat bolt body whose finish perfectly matches the blue finish on the receiver and barrel. The C8 bolt would've been made sometime from March to June of 1918. The receiver was made in either Dec. of 1917 or January of 1918. The barrel is stamped 7-18 and the whole rifle was probably assembled in August or September of 1918. I think that there should've been SOME C8 bolts still left in the Bolt bins, mixed up with the J5 bolts. Anyway, the early 1918 Springfield blue finish seems to've been put on this C8 bolt body and that matches the blue finish on the barrel and receiver. I've got a straight handle J5 bolt, but its finish is later and it makes the action stiff, so I went with the C8


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland18_zps567ad73e.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland18_zps567ad73e.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland13_zpsa522129a.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland13_zpsa522129a.jpg.html)