1905 posible alteration?

[bobgar]

I have an early production 1903. The serial number is of 1905 manufacture. The barrel is as "SA" "05" no number for month. How can I tell if the receiver and barrel were altered from 30:03 round.

[Rick the Librarian]

First, the chance is about 98% that it was altered. Look on the rear sight - is the last number on the leaf a "27" or a "23". If a 27, it almost certainly was altered. If you have a means for precise measurement, measure the barrel - a 30-03 will be 24.2", a 30-06, will be 24".

[John Beard]

Adding to what Rick said, measure the barrel length using a cleaning rod against the bolt face with the bolt closed.

J.B.

[bobgar]

Thanks guys, for the info.

[Rick the Librarian]

Let us know what you find out - yes or no, pictures are always welcome!

[bobgar]

It is exactly 24 inches long and the rear sight goes out to 2700.
There is something I find kind of "curios" about this rifle( or it may not be strange at all). All the parts are original finish which are now turned to patina. Except for the front band, the rear sight collar and the barrel. As I said before the barrel is SA 05 and the receiver was also made in 1905. The rifle looks like it went thru rework around WW1 the bolt steel code is from late 1917. The rifle has 2 "P" cartouches behind the trigger guard and a faint SA JFC cartouche on the side.

What I find strange is if they took off the barrel to parkerize it(it is parkerized with that grey colored parkerization) why did they not parkerize the receiver also? I am assuming the receiver and barrel have always been together since they were made the same year. The rifle parts appear to have to have been together a long time, the handguard and stock are a perfect match. What do you think?

[John Beard]

It is exactly 24 inches long and the rear sight goes out to 2700.
There is something I find kind of "curios" about this rifle( or it may not be strange at all). All the parts are original finish which are now turned to patina. Except for the front band, the rear sight collar and the barrel. As I said before the barrel is SA 05 and the receiver was also made in 1905. The rifle looks like it went thru rework around WW1 the bolt steel code is from late 1917. The rifle has 2 "P" cartouches behind the trigger guard and a faint SA JFC cartouche on the side.

What I find strange is if they took off the barrel to parkerize it(it is parkerized with that grey colored parkerization) why did they not parkerize the receiver also? I am assuming the receiver and barrel have always been together since they were made the same year. The rifle parts appear to have to have been together a long time, the handguard and stock are a perfect match. What do you think?

Your rifle is not as original as you surmise it to be. The "S.A./J.F.C." is an overhaul inspection stamp dating from after 1927. And during that period, all low number rifles coming through for overhaul had the receiver removed and scrapped. Your assumption that the receiver and barrel have always been together is not valid. And the mismatched finishes are direct evidence of that. An enterprising individual somewhere managed to find a receiver serial number and barrel date that matched and mate them together.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[Fred]

Pictures please

[Rick the Librarian]

05-marked barrels are not that uncommon, either.

[Mike Josephic]

My question seems to fit nicely into this thread.

I also have an early '03 Springfield, serial number 114,446. It has gone through the early modifications and has
one stock reinforcement bolt installed. The finish is all original blued, but faded mostly to patina. It actually was
found in the attic of an 80 year old house that was being refurbished. I know this for a fact since I was with the
gentleman who discovered it (the contractor). I'm assuming this was originally an 30-03 perhaps a ramrod bayonet?

The barrel is marked SA with the flaming bomb and "05". However below the "05" is the letter "A".
Can anybody tell me what the meaning of the "A" is? There are no cartouches or proof P markings on the stock
and no inspectors marks under the magazine cut off switch. The lone stock marking is a "3" just behind the
trigger guard which I assume is an inspectors mark. However, the for-end is marked with an "S". The rear
sight is marked out to 27. The stock does not appear to have been sanded.

Any insight as to what I have here would be appreciated.

I'm assuming this was originally a 30-03 rifle that was converted to 30-06. The barrel is 24 inches long.
This was measured with a 1/4 inch tape through the barrel to the bolt face.

Thanks for any help, advice or observations.

Mike

[Rick the Librarian]

Your rifle probably started out as a 30-03, modified to 1905 standards (looking like a "regular" M1903, but with a 30-03 barrel). The A, in that period, meant that, during overhaul, the barrel was still deemed worthy of use and was not replaced.

If the S stamp on the foretip is 1/8" it is from Springfield; if 1/4" in length, Rock Island. If you can remove the upper band, you will probably notice a small plug near the hole for the upper band screw. The plug was where the hole was located for the slightly longer 30-03 barrel.

As always, pictures would be appreciated.

[John Beard]

My question seems to fit nicely into this thread.

I also have an early '03 Springfield, serial number 114,446. It has gone through the early modifications and has
one stock reinforcement bolt installed. The finish is all original blued, but faded mostly to patina. It actually was
found in the attic of an 80 year old house that was being refurbished. I know this for a fact since I was with the
gentleman who discovered it (the contractor). I'm assuming this was originally an 30-03 perhaps a ramrod bayonet?

The barrel is marked SA with the flaming bomb and "05". However below the "05" is the letter "A".
Can anybody tell me what the meaning of the "A" is? There are no cartouches or proof P markings on the stock
and no inspectors marks under the magazine cut off switch. The lone stock marking is a "3" just behind the
trigger guard which I assume is an inspectors mark. However, the for-end is marked with an "S". The rear
sight is marked out to 27. The stock does not appear to have been sanded.

Any insight as to what I have here would be appreciated.

I'm assuming this was originally a 30-03 rifle that was converted to 30-06. The barrel is 24 inches long.
This was measured with a 1/4 inch tape through the barrel to the bolt face.

Thanks for any help, advice or observations.

Mike

Your rifle's receiver was manufactured in early 1905 and turned into Ordnance Stores at Springfield Armory as a loose part. The receiver was removed from Ordnance Stores in mid-1906, assembled to a knife bayonet rifle in .30-'03 caliber, and issued for service.

Your rifle's barrel was also manufactured during 1905 and turned into Ordnance Stores at Springfield Armory as an unmarked loose part. The barrel was removed from Ordnance Stores in mid-1906, marked "S.A./shell and flame/05", assembled to a knife bayonet rifle in .30-'03 caliber, and issued for service.

Sometime during or after 1908, the two rifles were recalled from service and disassembled. The barrel was inspected and marked "A" when found to be serviceable. The barrel was then altered to .30-'06 caliber by shortening 0.2 inches and re-chambering. The stock was also altered (shortened) by 0.2 inches for .30-'06 caliber and marked "S" on the fore end tip to indicate that it had been shortened.

The barrel and receiver were then re-assembled together as a complete rifle, fitted with a new rear sight graduated for .30-'06 caliber, and issued for service. The stock, from Rock Island Arsenal, was issued as an unmarked spare field replacement. Sometime thereafter, the original stock became damaged and was replaced with the unmarked spare field replacement stock now on your rifle. The rifle then eventually wound up in the attic where you found it.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[Mike Josephic]

Rick / John:

Thanks so much for the information. John -- the amount of info you supplied was amazing. I have a number of books
on the subject, such as the one written by William Brophy but it's tough to pick out these small details among all that's
contained in these.

I'll post some pictures tomorrow. Considering the amount of time the rifle spent in that attic, it's in excellent
condition. Just to give you an idea, it was found in an old leather case, non military. Upon trying to unzip the
case it fell into many pieces. The sling, also leather, did the same and no markings of any kind could be found
among the pieces. They were completely dry rotted. However, once cleaned up and oiled the stock was about
as new. Only a very few small flecks of rust are on the metal parts.

Thanks again,

Mike

[John Beard]

The information I cited came from a small book about the 1905-1910 M1903 rifles that C.S. Ferris and I published back about 1995. The book is now out of print. You are correct; other books do not contain that information. That's why we published it.

J.B.

[Mike Josephic]

Some pictures of the rifle as promised:

2657526576265772657826579

By the way John, do you happen to have an extra copy of that book for sale or know
where I can obtain one? Thanks again,

Mike

[Fred]

I don't think that the rifle has been parkerized. I think that is case hardening. That's a Nice rifle by the way. Have you ever owned a 1903 Springfield before? If you haven't and if you just kind of stumbled onto this one, have you thought about selling it?

[Mike Josephic]

Hi Fred:

No it's never been Parkerized. That comment was about a different rifle early in this thread.

It was originally blued and the blue has mostly faded to patina. I have several other '03 Springfields and
collect WW I / WW II rifles, pistols and accoutrements.

Thanks for the offer but I'm not looking to sell it. The reason that contractor called me was he's a friend,
he didn't know what it was (or it's value) and he knew I would.

Mike

[Rick the Librarian]

John is right about his book - it really is useful. I wish he and Nick Ferris would figure out a way to publish it again. Even used copies are almost prohibitive! :(

[Mike Josephic]

Hello John:

I found your book on Amazon.com. There are still copies available and I'm adding it to my library!

Thanks again,

Mike

[Fred]

Hi Fred:

No it's never been Parkerized. That comment was about a different rifle early in this thread.

It was originally blued and the blue has mostly faded to patina. I have several other '03 Springfields and
collect WW I / WW II rifles, pistols and accoutrements.

Thanks for the offer but I'm not looking to sell it. The reason that contractor called me was he's a friend,
he didn't know what it was (or it's value) and he knew I would.

Mike

Well I'm glad he had you to call Mike! Fantastic good fortune for you! Congratulations on getting it! Is there any chance of letting us know what you had to give for it?

[John Beard]

Very Nice Rifle!

Thanks for sharing!

J.B.

[Mike Josephic]

Well I'm glad he had you to call Mike! Fantastic good fortune for you! Congratulations on getting it! Is there any chance of letting us know what you had to give for it?

Hi Fred:

The story I told about finding the rifle happened 7 years ago. The "sale" was a amicable affair, he didn't want to make money
off me and I likewise didn't want to hurt him. He just wanted the rifle to go to somebody who appreciated it and could do the
sale legally. Since I have an FFL, that made it easy for him. I gave him $1,500 at the time and we both were happy.

Looking at how these have appreciated, I'm still happy. I keep telling my wife "collector guns are better than money in the
bank." Fortunately, she still believes me!!

Mike

[Fred]

I think that you did well Mike. Outstanding good fortune! We'd love to see more photo's of the rifle if that's possible.


Fred