Rock-Ola front sight

[Chuck Russell]

I bought this Rock-Ola (1,753,xxx with undated Rock-Ola barrel) in the early 1990's from the estate of a weapons accumulator. Anything and everything related to firearms with lots of surplus from the golden age for military surplus in the late 1950's. The carbine is used, but not abused and 100% Rock-Ola with the possible exception of the front sight, marked PO-B. Nothing in Carbine Club records or in "War Baby!" suggest that IBM sent any parts to Rock-Ola. The finish wear of the barrel and the front sight suggest they have been together for a long time. If this was a field replacement front sight, why would the staking of the pin and key be exactly the same as seen on other Rock's with TR, R and RP front sights? I feel that the possibility that this was a clever restoration is zero. I saw another Rock-Ola on Auction Arms a few years ago that had a PO-B front sight with the signature Rock-Ola staking. Anybody have another example or comments on the photos?

[jimb]

I can find no record of Rock-ola ever using any IBM parts; however, they did get some front sights from Underwood in Aug. 43. IUt may be possible, but I think it is unlikely.

[Tuna]

In your first picture there appears to be a fine line from the front of the sight to the muzzle which would seem to indicate that the front sight has been off the barrel at sometime. It could be a replacement that someone attempted to duplicate the staking on. Anything at this point is possible but without more information we may never know.

[Chuck Russell]

I know that this carbine was in the possession of the previous owner long before people were faking parts and restoring carbines. I see the line that Tuna is thinking indicates the sight was removed at some point. Might have also happened when the sight was originally put on by Rock-Ola. Without the benefit of holding the carbine in your hands and evaluating the entire piece for its originality I can't expect anybody to accept my premise that the sight could be original to date of manufacture. If it is not and was replaced in the field or depot, was the staking of the pin and the key (the same as I have seen in photos of original Rock-Ola's) the standard procedure for stabilizing M1 carbine front sight by an armorer? Maybe beating a dead horse with this. If you experts could see the carbine, in vivo, I think you might be convinced. But as Tuna says....we may never know. I have attached a few photos from other web forums: examples of Rock-Ola front sight staking for comparison. Thanks to anybody who recognizes their photos.

[Tuna]

Chuck, If you look at the sight pin on the right side of your sight and compare it to the others in the photos you posted of other front sights I think you can see the difference in them and yours. I really think that your sight was replaced way back in the past. Your pin has been driven in quite hard and enough force to flatten the end of the pin and damage the hole the pin goes into.

[Chuck Russell]

Thanks, Tuna. A few years ago there was a Rock-Ola from the next serial number block on Auction Arms. I kept the photos of this very nice looking Rock. Of special interest to me was the front sight (for obvious reasons). I hope that the current owner is not upset if they recognize their "War Baby". Remaining photos to follow.

[Chuck Russell]

Additional Rock-Ola photos

[Chuck Russell]

Some more photos

[Tuna]

I doubt he would be upset but he might be if he knew his rear sight was a repo and I am wondering about the acceptance stamp on the stock. If you look close at the front sight on the bottom of it you can see where it was hit to remove it from the barrel and on the top of it where it was installed on the barrel. So this sight has been on and off a barrel sometime in the past.

[Chuck Russell]

As a novice collector of the M1 carbine, I must rely on experts to lead the way. I purchased the previous issues of Carbine Club in 1991 and have been a member since. Original , un-restored carbines show up infrequently in my neck of the prairie. Local guns shows seem to be a poor source for collectible examples and parts. Most of what I see and report on data sheets, unfortunately, is from auction site photos. I realize that collecting M1 rifles and carbines has become hazardous, similar to collecting Colts SSA's, because of repro parts. Please tell me why you think the SI B sight on the auction carbine is a repro?

[Tuna]

It's the rear sight that is a repo not the front sight. Rock-Ola had a very well defined staking of the pin on the rear sight in the form of an X on both sides of the sight around the pin.

[Chuck Russell]

I just went through my stack of Carbine Club newsletters to check the data sheets for Rock-Ola "Carbines of the Month". The staking on the pin of the rear sight on all but one of the carbines with flip sights (that I checked) were reported as the pin surrounded by a circular mark. Photos of my Rock-Ola's rear sight included. This is the carbine with the incorrect PO-B front sight. By the way, I will never consider replacing that front sight.

[jimb]

The stake mark on the rear sight is about twice the correct diameter. It shouldbe just a few thousandths larger than the hole. That one is waytoo big.

[ChipS]

Thanks, Tuna. A few years ago there was a Rock-Ola from the next serial number block on Auction Arms. I kept the photos of this very nice looking Rock. Of special interest to me was the front sight (for obvious reasons). I hope that the current owner is not upset if they recognize their "War Baby". Remaining photos to follow.

Chuck:

I see nothing in the photos you provided that appear to be of any special interest wrt the POB front sight under consideration. Did you intend to provide a side view of the SI B sight? That being said, I have been collecting only about twelve years so I am probably no more of an expert than you, but here is my opinion:

1. I agree with Tuna that the BR rear sight may be a reproduction, but it is hard to tell from only one view;
2. The only distinctive 'X' configuration rear sight pin staking that I am aware of was done on late (1944) Quality Hardware Type 1 carbine sights. I have two GE-Q marked sights with this type of staking. However, I don't own War Baby and I am not a Carbine Club member so I would defer to more knowledgable members before I said nobody else staked 'em that way;
3. To the best of my knowledge the horizontal (I call it the 'screwdriver') front sight stake mark is unique to Rock-ola, or at least most commonly found on original Rock-ola carbines. I am not aware of IBM using this method. Again, I would defer to more advanced collectors on this point.
4. Your front sight appears to have been restaked only on the right side with an annular staking tool at some time - could be if the sight was removed and replaced, or it could be if the pin started to back out and was reset and restaked in the field, or it could be (?). I do think the sight was driven back in (right to left) as evidenced by the unbroken thin metal ring pushed up around the edge of the hole on the left side of the sight. I don't recognize any evidence of it being driven out from the left side;
5. If it were my carbine I would NOT remove the POB front sight, particularly if there is a genuine Type 1 Rock-ola barrel band on the barrel and if the wear and color on the band matches the barrel. IMO that sight appears to be a perfect match in color and wear to the barrel and if it is not original it has been on that barrel for nearly a lifetime. The (single) drag line on the muzzle is not proof positive of the sight being removed and could have been made by any contact with a hard edge or surface, or even by someone playng with a bayonet or flash suppressor.
6. Regarding whether or not it is possible for the POB sight to be original issue, I don't care what any 'expert' says is or is not possible. In this game I have come to believe the experts are just guys making semi-educated guesses based upon viewing more carbines of uncertain history that the rest of us. Next year it may be conventional wisdom that IBM did in fact ship a quantity of Type 2 front sights directly or indirectly to Rock-ola in December of 1943. Who knows? (A rhetorical question - answer: nobody)

This is just my humble opinion, I have stated my credentials, and you can take it for what it's worth. Bottom line on the POB front sight is what I think most others have said - probably not but nobody can be really sure. Semper Fi. ChipS

[Chuck Russell]

ChipS, Thanks for your interest in my carbine and your thoughts regarding its front sight. I am content with the PO-B sight and wouldn't think of wrecking it with a "correct" one. Maybe I'll live long enough to have somebody turn up information to justify my opinion. Unfortunately, I don't have any more photos of the carbine with the SI-B front sight. That was all that there was on the auction site. OK. Now that jimb has called my rear sight a fake, I'll present a few photos of the cartouche on the stock of my carbine so all the experts can compare it to the one ( with the SI-B front sight) that Tuna was skeptical of. Have at it

[wtmr]

about 6-8 yrs ago I had chance to get crate of rockola NOS barrels from Norway-here are some pics of unmarked sight with stake marks, I am in agreement that sight should stay as is. In carbine world most anything is possible and if not some genius will make it possible

[Tuna]

Jimb is not talking about your rear sight but the one in the photos you listed of an old auction the same as I have been.

[ChipS]

Chuck:

I too was commenting on the rear sight shown in your 3-22 pics of the other Auction Arms carbine (not your carbine) that has had the 'BR' marking partially obliterated by a drift. That sight just doesn't smell right to me, but it is just one photo. Your sight looks legit to me. That's a nice looking carbine you have - would be great to have some more pics showing small parts details and full length views.

Everybody notice the 'X' stamped at the back end of Chuck's receiver slide track? Is this a common Rock-ola mark in this serial number block? ChipS

[Chuck Russell]

I went through Carbine Club newsletters to check the Carbines of the Month that were Rock-Ola manufacture. There were 8 in newsletters up to #288. None of the carbines reported an "x" on the right side of the receiver. In Newsletter#105, p.1, Joe Betti reported that a small "x" sometimes appears on slides, hammers, barrels and receivers in all four serial number blocks (Rock-Ola). "When a production item was taken from the assembly line by RMC engineers for testing, the small x was stamped on it to identify the part as being used for testing, gauging, experimentation, etc. It was then usually returned and installed on a production gun".

[jonnyo55]

IMHO, the distinctive staking trumps all other considerations as far as originality goes, especially if all else looks right. Why would someone alter an IBM sight, rather than just replace it with a RMC item?
Additionally, consider this: RP marked front sights were made by the Prestolite division for RMC. PO-B marked front sights were made by the Prestolite division for IBM. Is it not possible that a PO-B marked sight found its way into a box of RP sights at the Prestolite plant? If it did, does anybody really think that the assembler at RMC would have not used it due to the PO-B marking? It was mentioned that there's a slight track where the sight may have been slid off. How did the sights go on, did they grow there? Same with how the pin was inserted...was it inserted without the aid of an impact tool that may have flattened one end? Especially with RMC, where "seat-of-the-pants" engineering was the norm....

Unfortunately, due to the plethora of fast-buck guys who are faking everything, we're beset with a mentality that screams "fake!" whenever we see anything that's out of the ordinary. It must be remembered that, in addition to officially organized parts shipments to ease shortages at a particular contractor, the G (more formally, the Carbine Integration Committee) would regularly send small lots of parts around just to ensure interchangeability. Once that was done, do you think that those "foreign" parts were destroyed, or put in a box marked "do not use...danger of confusing future collectors exists"? Not hardly...they were built into guns, right along with the "correct" parts.

[Tuna]

Just where did you find this information on the Carbine Committee sending parts boxes to different makers to check for interchangeability? I would like to add the information to my notes. Thank you.