Pre-WW1 M1903 Eye Candy

[Chuck Russell]

Great pictures of a beautiful rifle. Wish it was mine. http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12701377/guns-for-sale-curios-relics/curios-relics-rifles/springfield-original-pre-wwi-rifle-.05-bbl-mint-bore.c-and-r

[chuckindenver]

ill go on a limb...been a while for me,..
front band is backwards... bayonet lug is wrong, rear sight is wrong. buttplate is wrong. trigger guard is wrong.
front sight is wrong..
other then that , its nice....
i could be mistaken on some of that assesment..
but shouldnt the bayonet lug be the early type with no split at the stacking swivle?
shouldnt the front sight have the pin at the front?
shouldnt the rear sight have a file edge on the left side, and a wider adjustment slide for the spring and detent?
shouldnt the trigger guard have the long hole, and not be modified with the pin?
shouldnt that have a early numbered buttplate with smaller trapdoor??
shouldnt the stamp be script type?
hmmmmm?
its purdy though...not sure why he posted the TE and MW...your not gonna shoot it anyway..

[Rick the Librarian]

A real beaut!

[chuckindenver]

Rick? was i close on my assesment or way off base?? been lookin at parts guns so long its hard to say anymore...

[Fred]

I want it. Yea, so Rick, what are your thoughts on this rifle?

[Chuck Russell]

Rick's comments would be appreciated. John Beard's comments would be golden. One of the reasons I put together the M1903 data on what I thought were substantially original rifles was to be able to compare parts, barrel dates, receivers, styles of letters and numerals, etc, etc

[John Beard]

Chuck,

The lower band is installed backwards and the split-shank swivel is questionable. But everything else looks correct.

J.B.

[Rick the Librarian]

I need to take a closer look, especially with Chuck's comments. It wouldn't be the first time I've thought a sow's ear was a silk purse!

[Rick the Librarian]

Assuming the one-bolt stock was installed in the 1908-1909 period, I think some of the modifications could have been made, like the upper band, lower band swivel, buttplate, etc.

[chuckindenver]

when did they switch from the 1905 sights?? notice the front has the retaining pin in the back.
all the 1905 sights iv seen or had , pin was in the front...
the only 1905 rear sight iv seen was one i had, it had a file like edge on the left side of the ladder, and no stop bar to keep the adjust slide from coming off..
figured the JFC would match the script P as well.

[John Beard]

If you look closely, you will see that the rifle is fitted with an altered rod bayonet barrel and the front sight is pinned at the front.

The rifle's receiver was manufactured in 1907, well after the .30-'06 cartridge was adopted. The rifle, therefore, was never fitted with a 1905 rear sight.

The rifle was assembled in 1908 using mostly leftover parts drawn from Ordnance Stores at Springfield Armory. One must remember that Springfield Armory accumulated in Ordnance Stores very large quantities of unassembled parts, including loose barrels and receivers, during 1905 and again during 1906-07. And those parts had to eventually get assembled into complete rifles.

J.B.

[chuckindenver]

after i saved and blew the picture up, i can see the ghost for the pin in front..
like i said, iv been looking at so many parts guns over the last few years of gunsmithing....hard to say on a nice rifle anymore..

[03Rifleman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's been my understanding that the upper bbl band had been improved with a steel hardening process beginning sometime in 1910 and was therefore marked with the "H" to identify this process. This rifle appears to have this type of upper bbl band. Good pictures but personally, I would like to see a picture of the sighting index staking of the front sight to the stud on the bbl to see if it's original.

[John Beard]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's been my understanding that the upper bbl band had been improved with a steel hardening process beginning sometime in 1910 and was therefore marked with the "H" to identify this process. This rifle appears to have this type of upper bbl band. Good pictures but personally, I would like to see a picture of the sighting index staking of the front sight to the stud on the bbl to see if it's original.

The upper band bayonet lug is not conclusively marked with an "H". In addition, I am not aware of documentation affixing the precise date for implementation of bayonet lug hardening.

J.B.

[RCS]

sequence of front sights: left is the rod bayonet, middle is the altered barrel with the pin in front and far left is the standard.

My SA s/n 160963 has a SA 2-07 bbl and the no bolt stock has a non serif P in circle

[03Rifleman]

The upper band bayonet lug is not conclusively marked with an "H". In addition, I am not aware of documentation affixing the precise date for implementation of bayonet lug hardening.

J.B.

I respectfully disagree, the upper band on the rifle in question does appear to me to be marked with a small "H". With "precise date of implementation" aside and if the upper bbl band is indeed hardened and marked, would you consider it to be "period correct" for the rifle?

[John Beard]

I respectfully disagree, the upper band on the rifle in question does appear to me to be marked with a small "H". With "precise date of implementation" aside and if the upper bbl band is indeed hardened and marked, would you consider it to be "period correct" for the rifle?

I stand corrected. I enlarged the upper band photo and the bayonet lug is indeed marked with a very tiny "H". The "H" is considerably smaller than the "H" which appears on later rifles and perhaps may be an experimental or very early marking. Nevertheless, I still consider the upper band to be original to the rifle.

J.B.

[Fred]

Ok, what would you guys say that this rifle would be worth on the collectors market?
Thanks.

John Beard, I tried to send you a PM on this but your box is full

[Fred]

By the lack of a response, I'd guess that there are some of you who are interested in bidding on it. That's cool. I have a good idea what this rifle is worth anyway.

[John Beard]

Ok, what would you guys say that this rifle would be worth on the collectors market?
Thanks.

John Beard, I tried to send you a PM on this but your box is full

An analysis of the bid history shows that the last serious bidder dropped out at $1500. And therein lies a clue!

My Inbox has now been cleaned out some.

J.B.

[Fred]

Message sent to you John

[bobgar]

This question is regarding the cartouche JFC. Is this the same person JFC whose cartouche is the square box cartouche with SA over the JFC?

[Rick the Librarian]

Yes, J.F. Coyle.

[bobgar]

Rick, do you know dates of employment for JF Coyle and/or when he served as an inspector. Bob

[Rick the Librarian]

Not specifically, but I know his stamp appeared on rebuilt Krags and very early M1903s (in script). I would guess he worked at Springfield until at least the mid- to late-1930s.

[Fred]

Well it's $3,320.00 and it appears that the escalating bids will keep going up. So, if the last and top bidder in an auction happens to be a shill, do the auction rules allow him to pull his bid so that the next bidder down be given the auction? I'm going to be watching this one.

[Weasel]

Now at $3520.00 and we have lift off. The sky is the limit.

[John Beard]

I am pleased to see that the rifle fetched somewhere near its real value based on previous market conditions. Perhaps the trend will continue.

J.B.

[Weasel]

$3820.00, Sold.

[rayg]

Well it's $3,320.00 and it appears that the escalating bids will keep going up. So, if the last and top bidder in an auction happens to be a shill, do the auction rules allow him to pull his bid so that the next bidder down be given the auction? I'm going to be watching this one.

Fred you can't own them all, Ray:icon_lol:

[Fred]

Ray, if I'd have been able to have the money in my hand in time, I'd have put in a winning bid in the last few seconds! The rifle is worth it and more to me. Sigh

[bobgar]

Hi, are there some SA 05 barrels shortened, without being marked "A"

[John Beard]

Hi, are there some SA 05 barrels shortened, without being marked "A"

Yes, lots of them. Indeed, probably most of them. The "A" marking has no relationship with being shortened. It merely means that the barrel was on a rifle turned in for overhaul, was inspected and found still in serviceable condition, and could be re-used. During and after WWI, the meaning of the "A" changed and the later meaning is unknown.

J.B.

[John Beard]

Fred,

Your PM Inbox overfloweth. I am unable to reply to your last inquiry.

J.B.

[Fred]

Oops, OK sorry, it's fixed now John.