1907 Palma Cartridge for Camp Perry

[madsenshooter]

According to The History and Records of the Palma Match (The World Long Range Rifle Team Championships) by Colin C. C. Cheshire, 1992; 1999. p.4.97 "The USA shot with the "Krag" Rifle of service pattern and regular Ordnance issue with aperture sights. The ammunition by the Union Metallic Company was loaded with 36 1/2 Grains of W.A. powder and the Thomas pointed bullet Of 203 1/2 grains, giving a muzzle velocity of 2,140 foot seconds."

I'm going to try to duplicate the load this year for Camp Perry, since my alloy now has my NOE 316365 spitzer bullets weighing just that much. I've shot a really good short range group in the past using that amount of powder too. In my case it was RL19. If I can get accuracy equal to the jacketed match bullets I used last year, that's the plan Mr Peabody put up on the drawing board.

[RCS]

I have an original Thomas pencil point bullet and have a some photos, very interesting design,
used in 30-40, 30-03 and 30-06

The second photo shows a 30-40 cartridge with the round lead balls next to the Thomas bullet

[madsenshooter]

It's beginning to look like this is going to work out! I got out today using some of the bullets I cast using a copper enriched alloy. It took me awhile to file down the front sight blade enough to get on paper at 100yds with the rear sight all the way down. By the time I got on paper using the sight picture I want to use, front sight stud level with the top of the V, blade sticking up where I can see it, I only had 4 rounds left. They fell into a group about 1.5" round. I tried 36.5gr of a couple powders, DP85 an Accurate surplus powder, and RL19. RL19 grouped better and didn't need a magnum primer to light it as the DP85 does. I got lots of time to experiment with lubes and perhaps tweak the charge a little. I have around 70lbs of the alloy mixed up, so I should soon have enough of the 203gr bullets to get me through the summer.

[Pentz]

That's only 2400 bullets; what are you going to do with the rest if the summer? Looking forward to a report!
Myself, cast about 170 of the 311299 and another 160 or so of 311284 yesterday. The 311284 is from a borrowed mold and it appears to fill the throat better so I hope to hit the range by the weekend and see what develops. Still have not settled on a good lead formula, mostly using range scrap with a little COWW.

[madsenshooter]

I shot some of NOE's version of the 311284 yesterday too. Old sporterized rifle with an Enfield front sight and Rice peep, Springfield barrel I think. Very long throat, even the 311284 has to be seated quite long. But once I got it on, I was able to hit little bits of orange clay pigeon that was laying on the berm. I used 19gr of 10B101, a powder made by Vihtavoruori for 50BMG plastic training ammo. Burns about Blue Dot speed and only cost me $8/lb a couple years ago. I have lots of babbitts and such squirreled away for alloy mixing purposes. I make the bullets much harder than what they really need to be for Krag velocities. I'd test some of them if that Lee scope wasn't so hard to look through. Best test is out the bore.

[madsenshooter]

I tried working up the ladder yesterday with RL19 and DP85. It appears that I should've been working down!. Groups enlarged as the charge went up. So I might not get the velocity of the 1907 load, but who cares as long as they hit where they're supposed to, least they weigh the same and are pointed like the 1907 round. It would help if I had access to a chronograph! Load data developed with jacketed loads really doesn't apply to cast. Pressure will be lower, velocity higher. My alloys have a pretty low coefficient of friction I may already be working at 2150fps.

My front blade is .1" taller than a standard blade, .510". That's allowing me the sight picture I want, front sight stud level with the top of the eyepiece, front blade up there where it isn't distorted for me like it is when I set the top of the blade even with top the eyepiece, as one normally would. It allows me to look around a little too, might be a help in preventing me from cross firing. These were the best groups I got yesterday at 100yd, sandbagged off the top of my car. There was a young fellow sharing time with his two little daughters when I got to the range, only 1 bench available. I think I liked it better than shooting off the bench. The roof over the bench shades my sights and there's usually no shade at a highpower match.

The high right one was the first shot with the load after I had previously shot 10rds with a load that had too much pressure for the alloy. Alloy was blowing back on the case neck. Down the ladder with that load too! I think the lead deposited by those previous rounds effected that first shot and that 38gr load might do better.

[Pentz]

Nice grouping! Now you just have to do it with 10!

[madsenshooter]

I don't have enough RL19 to do 10 shot groups with it, some of the other powders I have enough to play with though. I'll eventually find the speed the bullet likes. Some of the guys on castboolits have reported that this bullet shoots 5 min flatter than a 311299. I had the rear sight all the way down, 6 o'clock hold.

[madsenshooter]

I got the "down the ladder" rounds loaded to shoot later this week. Mark, you'll be interested in this. It finally sunk into my skull that the load using a duplex charge of 7gr of Blue Dot under 43gr of W860 wasn't over pressure. It was likely giving me 2300-2400fps. So I backed way off on the charge of W860. I'm now using the same kicker charge of 7gr of Blue Dot, but only 35gr of W860, total charge 42gr. A 1/2gr tuft of fluff from Coltsfoot flowers holds the two powders in place. I've also used dacron from sacrificial stuffed animals. That should give me approximately the velocity I'm after, 2150fps at a pressure the alloy can withstand. The Zanesville Rifle Club has a Highpower clinic on the 26th, a 50 round practice match that I'll shoot the Krag in using either whichever cast load turns out to be most accurate, or some leftover 123gr .310 V-max loads that I have. Next day is an 80rd match that I'll use my Garand in.

PS, Mark the ramps are up down here!

[madsenshooter]

I got out with the down the ladder loads yesterday. Nothing shot worth a hoot! Even the 123gr jacketed loads that have shot moa in the past were unpredictable! A friend on castboolits was kind enough to run some quickload figures for me that I received yesterday. Quickload says the two RL19 loads above are right in the ballpark for 2150fps and should be running around 30,000psi max pressure. However, I either have not enough or too much of something in my alloy. Unlike the guys using the coppered alloy for hunting, mine is failing between 30,000 and 36,000psi. A quick pressure rise, like that from a magnum primer with DP85 will cause it to blow back on the caseneck. 10B101, (Blue Dot speed) is doing so at a predicted PSI of 36,600. The slower pressure rise of RL19 with a regular primer and the boosted W860 loads don't. I don't know if it was the culprit, but I used a Dacron tuft filler with about all of yesterday's loads. Back to the drawing board Sherman!

[madsenshooter]

I'm still working on this! I got a quantity of new powder to try, IMR7383. It was the powder used, beginning in the late 60s for the M8 50cal spotting rifle on the 106mm recoiless rifle. The cartridge is smaller than the 50BMG and the powder was designed to burn at 38,000psi with a burn rate that appears to be between 4350 and 4831, about like RL19. It is bulkier than RL19, 40gr of it fills the Krag case up to the beginning of the shoulder and should give me the velocity I need to duplicate the Palma load at a pressure my alloy can take. I found that I could still easily chamber a round with the bullet sized .314, so I'm going to try comparing loads sized .311 vs those sized .314. First I'll try them out of my scoped cutoff (see cast shooter upgrade below), then later insure that my full length rifle, which has the same bore/groove dimensions, gets along with whichever load tops the comparison. I have the loads, mother nature is not cooperating, wants to rain on my parade everyday.

I found out why nothing would shoot worth a hoot in the post above. At the end of the previous range session I fired several loads that were overpressure for my alloy, the loads were blowing lead back on the caseneck, and I didn't clean the rifle afterwards, so the bore was pretty heavily leaded up. For those who think shooting jacketed will clean the lead out of the bore, it doesn't appear to me to be so.

[Mark Daiute]

Thanks, Bob, keep the reports coming.

[madsenshooter]

Mother nature left me out of the house for awhile today. I tried 40gr of 7383 behind the 203gr 311365 bullets sized .311 vs .314. Neither shot what I would call a group, more a pattern, with the .314 sized bullets shooting a tighter pattern around 3" without the two unexplained flyers the .311 sized bullets gave me. The muzzleblast from the 24" barrel sounded much different than what I had experienced with slow burning powders before. It was more of a thud vs a boom. The barrel didn't get very warm either, despite shooting over 20 shots. Both things are likely due to whichever additive it is that inhibits muzzle flash. No burning gases going down the barrel, not as much heat transfer. There were some unburned grains that using a magnum primer might rectify. It wasn't exceptionally dirty burning other than that, not as dirty as a caseful of 860. I noted that there was less blowback of lube onto the caseneck with the .314 sized bullets, so likely less gas escaping past the bullet. I also shot some with the same charge, but with a .311 sized bullet cast of a harder alloy that only weighed around 190gr. The first two of those were touching, I was adjusting the scope between the other shots rather that shooting a group, but it was pretty predictable moving right along with the scope adjustments. I don't know how far I'll have to drive to find some magnum primers, the powder surely needs them considering that it is lit with a 50BMG size primer in its normal application. That should tighten things up a tad. This is all just experimentation, I've held on to my RL19, I know what it'll do and unless something gets better with this powder the RL19 is likely what I'll use at Camp Perry.

[13Echo]

If you are getting blowback around your case necks you might try annealing them. It has worked for my blackpowder rifles but I haven't tried it with smokeless.

Jerry Liles

[13Echo]

Another thought. If you are trying larger diameter bullets you may need a larger diameter expander button so the bullet isn't effectively resized when it is inserted into a too small neck.

Jerry Liles

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for the thoughts Jerry. I'm partially neck sizing with a Lee collet die for the 7.5 Swiss with a washer between shellholder and the bottom of the die, the collet, so I size the neck down just enough to get .002 or .003 neck tension. No overworking the neck that way. The Swiss die only sizes about 2/3 of the neck, leaving the other 1/3 expanded to seal and center things. What lube gets out onto the caseneck doesn't go far. I had hoped this powder would light and burn more efficiently. I don't think I'll get the accuracy I'm after with something that doesn't completely burn like the RL19 does. Maybe some RL22. I can't say what I'll do, I might abandon the alloy that gives me the weight I want and go with the harder alloy that gives me better accuracy. Not just yet though.

[13Echo]

Hmmm. I was considering trying the Lee .303 collet die to resize case necks a bit larger than usual for cast bullets. Haven't got the die yet but do you think it might work with the Krag?

Jerry Liles

[Pentz]

I've been using the 30-06 collet die adjusted so that the neck just barely holds my .311 projectiles. Basically just a very tight slip fit. YMMV, because the major impediment is my eyesight since I'm shooting "issue" class.

[madsenshooter]

The .303 has a longer body and shorter neck, so it will partially size the neck of a Krag case, likely more of it than my K31 die does. There's a bit of adjustment, and if that's not enough, there's the washer. You don't have to squeeze the neck all the way down against the mandrel, just down as far as you want. http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?9285-30-40-Krag-versus-.303-brit-case-dims

[psteinmayer]

I'm using the .303 sizing die with the mandrel lowered enough to expand the neck slightly with out having to get the case too far into the die. Afterward, I use a tapered reamer to slightly taper the neck mouth to prevent shaving any lead off the bullet when seating. Works pretty good!

[madsenshooter]

I researched nitroguanidine used as a flash suppressant and found that in order for things to work right, the nitroquanidine has to be first thing burned. The gases generated by it keep the gases generated by the nitrocellulose from flaming. Trouble is, the nitroguanidine is hard to light. I found that it burns best at a specific temperature, very nearly the same temperature that high nitroglycerine powders burn at. So I put a small amount of large flaked high nitroglycerine powder at the bottom of the case with the IMR 7383 on top of it. The unburned granules went away and the smoke that came out the barrel was grey rather than black. Pressure was just at the blow alloy back on the caseneck level. With the alloy I'm using that has been around 36,000psi, so I'll load some more with a little less of the booster charge. In the meantime, my local club has a 50rd match in a couple weeks, so I'll go ahead and load the rounds for it and Camp Perry with RL19.

[madsenshooter]

I'm still at it. I've worked my way down with the 10B101 booster and IMR7383 main charge to the point that I'm right on the borderline of my alloy's ability to handle the pressure. I shot six today, three of them blew alloy back on the caseneck, three of them didn't. I shot one, made a sight adjustment, and put five in a 1.9w x 1.0t, 100yd group with the rifle I plan on using at Camp Perry. That's as good as or slightly better than I ever got with Nosler 168gr match bullets. Down another half gr on the total charge should do it. The full length rifle has a tighter throat than the cutoff, I had no sign of alloy failure from a load that was one step higher shot from the cutoff.

[madsenshooter]

Ah, I see why three blew alloy and three didn't! There were two groups of cases with a weight difference of 3 grains between the groups. I already tried going down .5gr from the above load, with the same cases. No alloy blew from either group, but the shots were wider and the difference in point of impact for light vs heavy cases more apparent. I'm going to weigh cases and go back to that previous load using some of the lighter ones.

[madsenshooter]

7383 testing suspended, I decided to split the difference between the loads shown in post #6 and go with 38.7gr of RL19. That might not give me the 2150fps quickload predicted for 39.5gr, but I thought it prudent to cut back a tad for the higher temps of July. I had hoped to establish a 200yd zero at a local club this weekend, but unfortunately can't afford to go. But, I have a good 100yd zero using a six o'clock hold. Running a ballistic calculator says that should roughly translate to a center hold at 200yd. I see why they decided to use this weight spitzer bullet at 2150fps back in 1907, it's still supersonic at 1000yd. BC of my cast bullet must be over .500.

[madsenshooter]

The load didn't work out too well at 200 yds. I had a lot of bullets impact on the target in places other than where I was aiming! Though I'm not the world's greatest highpower shooter, I do have a sense for where the rifle is pointed when the striker falls. This year's score was 230-2X, down 20 points or so from last year. I'll move on to a better alloy that weighs a bit less, 190-195gr, shoot about the same speed, and forget about duplicating the Palma round. I still wish to shoot cast, since I can no longer afford those expensive match bullets.

My Garand, on the other hand, was shooting very much to point of aim and I wound up with a 267-7X. Nine of the fifteen slow fire prone shots were Xs, if I count the four sighter shots that were X, and my slow fire prone score was 97-5X. Then I stupidly loosened my sling one notch before shooting the rapid fire string. That changed my cheek weld and the point of impact, group was high right and score was 88. I wound up mid-pack in the unlimited Garand. Lesson learned, when you're shooting 10s and Xs, don't change nothing! I know what notch the sling was in when I was hitting, the sight hasn't been moved, just wait till the next match!

[psteinmayer]

You should have heard Bob muttering while he was walking back to the car! LOL Just kidding Bob...

You shot much better than I did this year. I only had a 186 with my Krag (83 prone-slow, 53 prone-rapid, and 50 off hand). I was having trouble getting my sights back on target during the rapid string. I have a spare 1902 rear sight, and I'm going to enlarge the peep slightly, and see if that helps.

My Garand was also much better, but not on par with Bob's... I had a 240: 90 prone-slow, 90 prone-rapid... and then 60 off hand. The wind had kicked up and between the rain and wind, I was having a heck of a time holding steady in off hand. Next year, I'll have a proper shooting jacket, and that should help with my off hand scores!