View Full Version : US&S EXP No 8
This is a US&S recently acquired. Great finish.
Scott Gahimer
03-30-2014, 05:42
I think you should have looked at some original US&S pistols, then specifically researched the EXP...and then consulted with an expert. Did it come with a return policy?
Yes Scott, I did. It's straight. I know you're pissed that I was able to buy Chuck Clawson's cover photo Colt serial 39 and his Singer, but don't try to publicly pee over other guns I acquire just to "pay me back". There are plenty of knowledgeable and trusted dealers and I used them to vet this pistol. Hope your knee is getting better every day.
gordon
Scott Gahimer
03-30-2014, 07:22
Gordon:
No. 39 and S800418 have nothing to do with this gun and I am not pissed at you. You post pistols on a public forum where I post and I posted what I did, not for "pay back", but so others will learn and know what I think. If you think it's straight, by all means, keep it and enjoy it. I didn't expect you to agree with me or to be interested in what I see or think. Did the same knowledgeable and trusted dealers that steered you to 10, 501, 502, 503, 110000 and some others you've posted steer you to this pistol?
In a discussion we had after the Morphy auction, you told me you had dinner with Mr. Morphy. You told me after I inspected Super .38 #3 and told the auction it was refinished and the markings were engraved...including the serial number...that Morphy then contacted an expert who told him the gun was okay. I am sure there are many sellers and experts who are happy to tell people what they want to hear.
You also told me you thought it made a difference knowing who was bidding on guns at auction...that if a knowledgeable collector was a bidder, that was a good sign. Well, I inspected about 30 items at the Morphy auction and only bid on the 2 I purchased. But I registered with them to call me on about a dozen items to bid, including the guns you bought, just to see what they went for and to keep the auction house from knowing what I wanted to buy. Any auction that would share information about who is registered to bid or inquiring about any auction, IMO, isn't anyone I'd consider a good source of information. They only do that kind of stuff to reel in guys with deep pockets and inflate sales prices.
I told you as a subscriber to my site, all you had to do was spend $35...just like all my other folks who order Online Opinions from me, and you could have saved yourself a bunch of time, trouble and embarrassment on NAA 5. You told me you thought I'd do a lot better not charging you. Apparently, you don't pay for the opinions you get, and so far, I'd say you've gotten your money's worth.
Remember NAA 5? You were sure that was original, too. Use who you want for an opinion and believe what you want. But don't be surprised if everyone doesn't agree. I will not bother to offer information on all the issues I see with this EXP 8. However, I am relatively confident at least some folks who view these boards see some of the same things I do.
Johnny P
03-30-2014, 07:45
Unless it is just the fuzzy photograph, the trigger sure looks like it is milled rather than stamped. US&S never used a milled trigger.
http://i59.tinypic.com/260zgqe.jpg
Scott, sorry if our past has clouded your opinion of any gun I share with this forum. I don't sell pistols or advice so I have no dog in the fight with you. I know you want to be the 1911 Moses coming down from the Mountain and perhaps you should be...perhaps. You make your living selling yourself as an "expert". I just buy guns and share the photos with other collectors. When I make an error, like NAA #5, I thanked the forum for helping me and I was happy to have my money returned. You were, as you told me, the underbidder of the Singer I bought at Morphy's. I suspect you were after Colt #10 as well. Sorry.....That's the way auctions work. The opinion of the Colt .38 Super you mentioned was never of interest to me. The people at Morphy's thought you were wrong. I just told you that for your information only. You decided to share that with the many people here.
You asked me to pay you $20,000 to not interfere/block my purchase of Clawson's Singer. Clawson sold it to me in spite of what you said was a previous long term relationship (20+ years) with Chuck. Maybe that's why he decided to sell it to me. I know you're upset with that because you blocked my subscription on your site that I obtained from you when I purchased a $20,000 Navy 1911 you sold to me. Sad commentary.......
US&S No. 8 is a great, authenticated pistol. You really can't make a valid judgement call from the two photos I posted. Even you aren't Superman able to see through posted photos of guns. Hard to substitute your snap judgement from the 4 people who have owned the gun since 1975. they are all morons I'm sure. What was this gun worth in 1975 ? If you're going to fake something almost 40 years ago, why not pick something that was worth a lot at the time. It's only very recently this gun has traded over 10K. It is almost identical to the 5 others I inspected.
I think you need to take a moment to evaluate the harm a public tiff over a gun you've never seen can cause damage to your reputation. My reputation is intact and outside of buying pistols....you need the opinion of this arena much worse than I do..
I would like to be able to post photos of 1911s and share them with those that are interested. If someone has a question , then ask in a polite way. No one is going to share if a 'grand master" will denounce it as fake (or allege it as fake) because you didn't run it by them or buy their opinion. Make any observations you want. make them factual and discernible . Make the politely......it's what professionals do.
Scott Gahimer
03-30-2014, 10:05
Gordon:
I'll be brief. I did NOT bid on No. 10 because it had too many problems. I did not bid on the Singer because it sold for too much for a pistol in that condition with an incorrect magazine. If you suspect I bid on either of those pistols, that may make you feel better, but it is not the truth. I never bid on anything until the bidding is ready to close. I don't run prices up; I bid at the end. Once the pistol went north or $50K, I was not interested.
And to clarify. I suggested you pay me the same finder fee you pay others in exchange for me to decline buying the Singer. I still have the written sales contract signed by myself and CWC, acknowledging the price they (he and spouse) set, their acceptance of my $10K cash down payment and allowance of 60 days to pay the balance. When I took the full balance due to pick up the pistol, about 30 days later, Mr. Clawson did not honor the contract and raised the price by $65K. His wife showed him their signed copy of the agreement and tried to persuade him to honor it. We were told you'd been calling and e-mailing him 2-3 times a week, even after you were told he had already agreed to sell it to me.
So much for brevity. :)
Here is a photo of part of the purchase agreement.
http://i59.tinypic.com/2hnxv6c.jpg
When I called and told you about the purchase agreement, you told me I was his friend and that I wouldn't sue him. I agreed. You said others knew he and you had previously talked about you buying the Singer. I asked you if you thought some verbal or telephone agreement was better than my signed contract where money had exchanged hands. Then, you said Chuck Clawson ought to know that you were no one he wanted to mess with. You said when he told you he was selling me the pistol, you told told him he had a mess on his hands and he better clean that up. So I assumed raising the price by $65K was his way to do that. The pistol was worth what I agreed to pay for it, but no more. Originality and condition are what drive prices to knowledgeable collectors. Guns in the books are nice. I have nearly 40 of the guns shown in his books. But there are limits on everything, even on items are are 100% original.
Anyone who would threaten action against CWC for not selling a gun to him is no friend of mine. I opted to let the gun go, rather than expose my friend to any problems.
FYI, the reason you were deleted from my site as a subscriber is because you told me you'd phone me by noon the next day, and you didn't. You never followed-up. Instead, you rushed in to make the purchase and then post pictures of 39 and S800418. Was that gloating? I simply don't give free subscriptions to people who say one thing and do another.
Now, only because you know so much about US&S EXP pistols...let's see how long it is before others figure out what you just bought. BTW, the photos you provide are plenty good to see everything you need to know to draw conclusions about what this pistol is...or isn't.
I've already done the hard part, pointing out there are multiple issues with the pistol. You do not value my opinions, so let's let others look it over and offer their opinions.
Scott Gahimer
03-30-2014, 10:47
When I make an error, like NAA #5, I thanked the forum for helping me and I was happy to have my money returned.
Yes, this is how you thanked the gentleman who first broke the news to you that you had a problem on NAA 5. I'm starting to see a pattern here. BTW, you didn't only owe all those posted info a thank you, but you owed the one gentleman an apology.
Only after 5 pages of posts with multiple people devoting all kinds of time and posting all kinds of images did you finally acknowledge what many others knew from the moment you posted the images. Think about it, Gordon. I don't have any motive for posting any bad info for a pistol on the forum. I do depend on a reputation for knowing what I'm talking about and being able to back it up. Do you think I am the only one who has noticed what's wrong? I've received e-mails and phone calls, the same way I do when others post high profile pieces with problems.
From the NAA #5 thread, Gordon's way of saying thanks.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2hyglde.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/15z3tol.jpg
Johnny P
03-31-2014, 06:02
An original US&S stamped trigger in the bright blue finish.
http://i59.tinypic.com/34gvst0.jpg
The receipt you purport is from Clawson is a matter between you and Clawson. He denies giving you one. You asked for me to pay you $20,000 to "go away". Who does something like that ? Bribes are always wrong..
You cancelled a subscription that was paid for with a Navy 1911 I purchased from you for $20,000. It was what I bought with the pistol....certainly wasn't free.
Leave your frustrations about not winning Colt #39 and the Singer S800418 out of any opinion of me or any gun I may post here. I now see why so many collectors have so little respect for you. While you seem to have good technical knowledge about the 1911, your general lack of business ethics are widely known to be severely lacking. You will certainly loose more business with this public display. I have often been told by many to "be careful" when dealing with you. Good advice
You personally told me you bid on the auction Singer that I won because you didn't want me to get it "too cheap". My bet is you didn't win #10 or the Singer is, because like Clawson's guns, you couldn't afford them.
I apologized to milgunsguy for my tone in that post in a private message and we now correspond regularly via email. I always apologize when I'm wrong. You might learn to do the same one day.
gordon
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 09:00
Gordon:
In my first post, I told you the same thing I'd tell anyone who purchased such a pistol. Anyone with basic knowledge of US&S M1911A1 pistols, a few good reference books and access to the Internet should be able to look at the photos you posted and see multiple issues with this pistol. Looking at multiple known original pistols is basic to learning. Anytime someone is going to purchase one of the most widely faked examples, he should also specifically study the known original examples of those pistols, too. Because the EXP has been documented with two different surface preparations (but still the exact same Du-Lite blue finish), and because fakes abound, one should also seek out an expert who is familiar with the US&S pistols, but also well-versed with other manufacturers so he can spot and identify all the incorrect parts. It's one thing to think something doesn't look right, and another to know it's not right because you can identify what the part is. Additionally, a real expert should also be able to spot inconsistencies that come with mismatched parts.
Additionally, I asked you if you had a return policy on the pistol...another appropriate question because, if you did, most sellers require buyers to promptly return items for refund. Because you purchased the pistol, it was obvious you and/or your "experts" did not see all the non-US&S parts and other inconsistencies. So there was very little point in trying to explain all the things wrong, nor what I considered the time to have a 5-page NAA #5 type thread to give you a warm, fuzzy feeling while we held your hand, posted numerous photos of original pistols for comparison, so we could finally get you and/or your "experts" to the point of seeing the difference in US&S manufacture parts and parts manufactured by other makers.
And to prove my point that it would not have done any good, you did not reply asking what things I saw with the pistol that caused me to ask if you had a return policy. No, instead, you accused me of being pissed at you and trying to get even. You made it a point to try to discredit what I was saying by attacking my character. I suppose if you don't know anything about the pistol, it's a lot easier to attack the messenger. I normally attempt to keep my posts about the pistols, rather than the people, but you made that pretty well impossible this time. You wanted to talk about everything except the pistol. So fine, we've done that and people can believe what they want. And you still have the same pistol issues with EXP 8.
Johnny Peppers has already started the ball rolling identifying a trigger that was never used in US&S production. What about all the other small parts that are discernible in your photos. All anyone has to do is save the images, brighten them up and enlarge them, and there are plenty of other things that are not US&S, not correct for this specific variation or not properly prepared for an original EXP pistol. I'd suggest just going part-by-part, comparing them to known examples. Anyone with basic knowledge and observation skills should be able to do it.
Am I looking at a Sistema trigger? They're close in appearance to Colt milled triggers but when placed side by side are slightly different. I know that Sistemas were/are a platform for fakes due their being machined closely to Colt specifications and relatively inexpensive to come by or at least used to be.
Let's talk more about the gun; that's the important thing. If we can educate ourselves and track down the fakers or at least expose their work then that's what needs to be done.
Scott. I prefer to do business with dealers that don't have their own agenda. Your reputation precedes you in this regard. I'm sure the many readers on this page recognize your behavior. You can keep the "I just want to help" charade. Where this true, you would have approached the subject very differently.
I managed to acquire one of the finest wrist watch collections in the world over twenty years with the help of multiple experts. Many I purchased from or many just offered their opinion on other watches. A large portion was sold at Christies in December 2012. 3 world records were set.
http://www.christies.com/Important-Watches-23590.aspx
As the auction results show, I can't be all that uninformed in acquiring desirable items for my collection.
While I don't have very much money in this pistol, I did receive advice from experts other than you. It's almost like looking at your web site photo then meeting you in person. No correlation what so ever. If two people described you, which would be correct. Well, they both would, wouldn't they? You are kind of like a one eye Jack....I've seen the other side of your face.
To date, no one has shown up with another US&S No 8. Maybe you have one with that serial number ????
I'll get my advice else where. Thank you.
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 10:27
Ignats, thanks. I was sure there were others interested in what this pistol is. Sistema? I'm not sure about that. Additional macro views of the trigger would probably be required to say. But, based on the brightened image Johnny posted in post #6, I think there is no doubt whatsoever the trigger is milled. Johnny also posted an excellent image of an original US&S stamped trigger in post #10. Here is the brightened image of the trigger in Gordo's pistol and a couple images of original US&S triggers I'll furnish. Does anyone see a difference?
Gordon's trigger (photo from post 6)
http://i58.tinypic.com/2a94i36.jpg
Triggers from 2 different original US&S pistols. Compare these two images to Johnny's trigger in post 10 and Gordon's trigger shown here and in post 6.
http://i60.tinypic.com/rmn11s.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/n12b2o.jpg
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 10:57
Let's move on to the hammer. While Gordon's photos don't show checkering pattern, they do clearly show the side profile of the hammer well enough to determine what it is. Here are cropped images of Gordon's to show both sides, so there is no mistake about what we're seeing.
http://i58.tinypic.com/rss86u.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/16hu2ia.jpg
Here are left and right side views of an original US&S hammer from the same pistol. If you have images of what you believe are original US&S hammers, please post them. I checked all 20+ US&S pistols I show in my Gallery. They all had identical hammers to these I show below.
http://i57.tinypic.com/28vyluw.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/33adv1v.jpg
See any similarities? I don't. However, I am relatively sure I know what original pistols have hammers like the one shown in Gordon's pistol. But I won't post images of those pistols until others have had a chance to examine the hammers, comment or post their own images for comparison.
Gordon, I have always appreciated the pictures of guns I will never be able to pay for, therefore I always enjoy looking at your threads. Reading this, I understood that there is a personal problem between you and Scott Gahimer. We're all humans and have similar problems with other guys, probably some which are not on the board, but that is not something uncommon. However, I do not want to interfere in this topic.
What I wanted to say (while I of course need to mention that I'm definately not the guy who is able to tell you whether this pistol is legit or not, but others might be) was that there are plenty of persons here who would be willing to give you their opinion upon your pistol, and help you to confirm if it's original or not. All you need to do is upload a few more pictures of your pistol, showing a few details like the trigger, the markings, the hammer and other distinctive details of any M1911(A1) pistol. If you don't want to, that is fine aswell, however the opportunity is that you will also get other opinions from guys here who also have knowledge. And you're anyway free to believe whoever you want to believe.
So I'd really be looking forward to see more of this pistol! Please upload some pictures!
Tommy2guns
03-31-2014, 02:39
Gentleman pardon my intrusion in your conversation or boxing match. I am new to the forum but not to collecting pistols. I have always looked to this page and several others of the same type for knowledge I may be lacking about a particular genre of firearm.
I have never felt this type of sparring is good for anything when it is apparently coming from a place of anger or emotion. Whatever the root of this negativity is, it makes the original subject completely left in the dust.
I don't know either of you gentlemen and have never bought, sold or had trade with you either. The only reason I am making this post is the fact that I have had first hand knowledge of three known examples of the US&S EXP specimens out of the reported 100+/- pistols produced by US&S.
These are not pistols I hawked photos off of the internet to show off on my facebook page or personal website. I held these guns in my hands and had the opportunity to break them down for closer exam, study and photograph them.
One of these examples, SN99 was the gun that sold at Morphys Auction in January for an estimate $16k with auction fees. I was not at the auction on sale day but did preview the gun a week earlier. I did not bid on the gun as I was not looking to buy one but while I was killing time in the auction house I asked to examine it. In my novice collector opinion I felt that example was legit. Obviously someone else thought so as well to a nice sum over $15,000.
Another was SN36 which I had the option to examine prior to a public sale of it for the first time of two times it went up for auction in the past 10 years. It is the only example I have seen that had an embossed US&S factory tag with the serial number stamped on it.
The third was SN87 and at the time it was in a collection with two others in Jackson, Mississippi. Two of which were polished blue finish and the other was the duller, utilitarian finish of the production models. I did spend much time in the comparison between the other two at such a degree to make any strong declarations about it.
The reason I am adding to this post is that I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone of us has had the opportunity to examine all of the roughly 100 pistols assumed to exist or existed at one time. If we are lucky then maybe any of us could have possibly seen a third of them both in person as well as mixed in known photos. That leaves maybe 60-70 or better to not be able to study. You ever go to an English Lit exam on a novel that you only read the table of contents and expect to get an "A" on it?
With all of that said let's move on to the guy that wrote the book on it. None of which I see coming to anyone's aid here and I think for good reason. You ever consider that you both could be right or both be wrong?
Meadows writes at a greater length about these guns and clearly states that some, not all triggers, barrel bushing, lanyard loop, recoil spring guide, spring plug, slide stop were purchased from outside contractors. Take that short list along with the remainder of semi finished parts coming from other sources screams of variation between these guns.
Anyone here who takes issue with these comments should put earplugs in, shut out all the noise being made by big egos and opinions and read the full text of information from these two scholars of the 1911! Whenever something is put in a reference text that bolsters your claim you are more than happy to point it out. When it contradicts your claims then you ignore it! Can't always have it both ways guys.
I guess the last thing that seems to elude so many people on the subject of antique or collectible arms in general is the fact that people have owned these guns for years. Some people inherit guns or obtain them all on their own without knowing or understanding what changing out a worn out or inoperable part that may have been original to a better looking or operable part that is technically not correct for a particular gun.
Some people see what the majority of us call patina and honest wear and tear on an item and decide it's not "pretty" so they send it off to a Turnbull or the like and spend thousands of dollars, loosing thousands of dollars making their gun "pretty". Does that mean there is any trace of fraudulent intent? No, just means they wanted it their way, stupid as that may be it is not always done with malicious intent.
If the guy who owns this gun was trying to sell it to any of us and we think there is a problem with it then we can either point it out or walk away. If it is not for sale and they are happy with it then why trash talk it?
I use to collect civil war items of all make and manner. After getting out in the market and going to the shows and swap meets I became overwhelmed with all the unsolicited opinions about my collection and have never seen so many people set themselves up as the SELF APPOINTED MAN IN CHARGE of all things confederate, etc..
Let's call this jerk "John". I had been digging around thru all these collections and offerings and acquiring all manner of neat stuff I was completely content in owning. Had no intention of selling any of it. If I displayed an item online or at a show and low and behold along came John.
John would stand there and detract everything he could think of to kill the value of the item along with any respect I may have started off having for him. After his initial bashing of the item, he would turn right around and either make an offer to buy it, ask me how much I wanted for it or offer to write an opinion to go along with my item that would help increase the value for my not so good item or try and sell me his to go with mine!
Sure does seem that something like that goes on a lot in regards to these same circles.
I apologize for the long winded first post here and I hope to be more brief in the future.
KeithNyst
03-31-2014, 04:02
FYIW, EXP #1 is up in the May RIA Auction: http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/52/lid/3751
Johnny P
03-31-2014, 04:17
"Meadows writes at a greater length about these guns and clearly states that some, not all triggers, barrel bushing, lanyard loop, recoil spring guide, spring plug, slide stop were purchased from outside contractors. Take that short list along with the remainder of semi finished parts coming from other sources screams of variation between these guns".
That is somewhat taking Meadows out of context. The trigger has been mentioned as a part that is incorrect. If you read Meadows he explains:
"Yawman Metal Products of Rochester, New York, a subsidary of the Meyer Tool & Die Co. of New York, produced many of the small component parts, including the stamped trigger."
While Meadows indicates that US&S bought various parts from various suppliers, he did not say US&S bought various triggers from various suppliers. If you read far enough in Meadows he explains that Yawman produced all the stamped triggers for the four contractors.
Did anyone else besides Colt (and after WWII - DGFM - Sistema) make milled triggers? I can't think of any other manufacturers during that era that did make them. Oops, left out Singer.
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 05:00
Yes, Remington Rand had milled triggers up to about the 927xxx serial range. However, US&S never used a milled trigger.
Johnny P
03-31-2014, 05:03
FYIW, EXP #1 is up in the May RIA Auction: http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/52/lid/3751
An interesting comparison pistol. It has the type of hammer and trigger that you would expect to find on a US&S, as well as the contour of the machining you would find on a US&S receiver.
:icon_redface:Oh boy, here we go again . . . . . .maybe.
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 05:48
EXP 1 also has a proper US&S M1911A1 thumb safety, the proper late Keyes Fibre style stocks. For those who don't know it, the EXP were late production pistols, many of which were made with rejected receivers. US&S had depleted no ring stocks before these pistols were made.
Gordon's pistol has a M1911 thumb safety! Notice the thin thumb piece and ridge around it.
http://i60.tinypic.com/35be8eu.jpg
Original US&S thumb safeties are entirely different. Here's one example...plenty more photos available. Notice the coverage difference on the hammer pins.
http://i57.tinypic.com/mc6idk.jpg
Back to the issue of the hammer in Gordon's gun. That hammer didn't even exist when the EXP pistols were made. Here are a few of the same hammers...all in 1944 Colts. BTW, Johnny, is the arrow pointing to the "contour in the machining" you mention? If so, I have photos of about 20 original US&S pistols. They all have like contours in their machining. See images.
The 1944 Colt hammers...same as in Gordon's gun.
http://i57.tinypic.com/156phzs.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/e0h9tt.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/20j09sk.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2zjgtih.jpg
Here is Gordon's contour in the grip tang
http://i57.tinypic.com/f3xqwx.jpg
Here is what original US&S production grip tangs look like.
http://i58.tinypic.com/zkrehe.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/20sa911.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/2zsxr9l.jpg
You can compare these grip tangs to the one on EXP 1 at the RIAC site http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/52/lid/3751 You'll see they are the same.
And just think, we were able to see all these issues with just the iffy pictures Gordon posted. I wonder what hie and his experts were looking at?
We are not up to post 50 yet
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 06:24
We are not up to post 50 yet
No need to stretch it out any longer. Gordon is a grown up. He can handle it.
So what is the receiver on EXP 8? Well, looking at a lot of original pistols, makes that a little easier to determine. Every manufacturer's grip tangs were slightly different, and varied slightly in different serial ranges. Sadly, US&S NEVER produced a receiver with the grip tang that is shown on Gordon's gun. Colt's were sorta similar. But, the only M1911A1 manufacturer who produced receivers with the exact same grip tang and pin placement as what is on EXP 8 (that I've been able to find...looking at a lot of pistols) was Remington Rand, in the 1.3M to 1.5M serial range. Here are a few examples:
http://i61.tinypic.com/dpaaeo.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/r0edcg.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/jieuj9.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/103u71v.jpg
Unless anyone believes US&S used Remington Rand receivers that were not manufactured until 1944 in their EXP pistols, it appears EXP 8 has been scrubbed of Remington Rand markings...probably including the serial number...and that creates an issue about the legality of even possessing it. Hmmm? I wonder what that means about all that provenance back to 1975?
Johnny P
03-31-2014, 06:47
US&S Navy issue with the typical US&S contour.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11rq0ec.jpg
I personally would not have noticed any of these issues.
Then again, I would not have spent a small fortune on any gun without doing my research or consulting someone who knew his stuff.
All I can say is . . . . Doh boy.
And BTW, a gun with altered serial numbers would likely be illegal to own in my state.
I personally would not have noticed any of these issues.
Then again, I would not have spent a small fortune on any gun without doing my research or consulting someone who knew his stuff.
All I can say is . . . . Doh boy.
And BTW, a gun with altered serial numbers would likely be illegal to own in my state.
Which is why it's a good idea to read the posts here, observe and record serial number ranges etc etc.
It's a federal crime to possess a firearm that has an altered or removed firearm. From National Firearms Act of 1934
Criminal conduct
The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, in relation to engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to (NFA) firearms without having registered or paid a Special Occupational Tax (SOT); receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.
Criminal penalties
Violations of the Act are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The Act provides for a penalty of $10,000 for certain violations. A willful attempt to evade or defeat a tax imposed by the Act is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 in the case of a corporation or trust), under the general tax evasion statute. For an individual, the felony fine of $100,000 for tax evasion could be increased to $250,000.
Scott, I believe you have made some good points. I guess it's a question of how you do it and your less than ethical approach to collecting. If you are correct, I may be out about 7000 dollars. Chump change compared to the 2 or 3 hundred thousand I've made on guns you could only wish you owned. I may ask for my money back but I think there is enough right about number 8 when compared side by side with other EXP examples that I'll keep it. No matter, right or wrong, I'm just fine with it. I like the gun.
What will be interesting is to speculate how often your phone doesn't ring with new business. While I know you sometimes sleep overnight in your car (like when I met you in Pa.), and sell pistols from a hand bag ( without an FFL), the silence might be hard on you ( Don't worry you're a big boy, you can take it). You've shown many people how small minded and petty you can be and the real person you are. While I had to swallow my gaul when I sent you twenty thousand dollars to buy a Navy pistol from you recently ( remember how you said you cut out offering it to your subscribers first to sell it to me), it will never happen again . I wouldn't buy serial number one from you. Bet your subscribers don't know you frequently don't offer your best new guns to them.
All in all, this has been a good lesson for me. My bet it is for the forum readers as well.
No one will ever know the number of calls you never receive after today.
You do a good job imparting your knowledge to others. I'll try to share my knowledge as well.
Hope your knee is getting better every day.
Jay Johnson
03-31-2014, 08:21
I gotta say, this thread and the thread on NAA #5 are fascinating reads, they're also maddening in regards to the extent the fakers will go to pull off their con job.
KeithNyst
03-31-2014, 09:34
Take all the personal stuff aside ... and what is left in both NAA#5 and EXP #8 threads is a fascinating learning experience. I do not have a local technical mentor; I find this "autopsy" approach extremely helpful to my learning.
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 09:56
I gotta say, this thread and the thread on NAA #5 are fascinating reads, they're also maddening in regards to the extent the fakers will go to pull off their con job.
The only way to overcome fakery, regardless of how poor or good, is to arm yourself with real knowledge through experience. Money doesn't buy either. You have to either do the work or work with someone who has. Happy collecting to those committed to learning.
Scott Gahimer
03-31-2014, 10:16
Take all the personal stuff aside ... and what is left in both NAA#5 and EXP #8 threads is a fascinating learning experience. I do not have a local technical mentor; I find this "autopsy" approach extremely helpful to my learning.
The personal attacks are often the cost associated with providing that good learning experience for the readers. Sorting through the facts and fiction shouldn't be too difficult for anyone wanting to learn..
Tommy2guns
04-01-2014, 01:49
Hey guys are we gonna drive the short bus to gun school again today? Probably should. I want to point out something to some of you if you can follow and understand the hypothetical here.
Imagine you have a horrible condition any brand made 1911 with deep pitting and weak or thin markings along with a ton of rust. Could have all original parts or some aftermarket grips or pins, hammer, trigger, etc...wrong mainspring housing whatever. You send this pile of manure off to Turnbull or the fellow Steve Moeller to restore to as mint as possible with the best of their ability and skill.
They take your pile of scrap in for a few months and charge $3-4k to restore it. They sand and file and polish away all those crappy illegible markings from frame to slide. They resurface the parts and try and sharpen and clean up the round edges thereby removing metal and possible distorting the original lines the gun had when first made. They replace most of the little parts, pins, screws etc..with good close modern repro parts that are sharp and clean and bring the overall picture of the gun back up to close original as possible.
You pay them the$3-4k to them for doing this so you will have a museum quality condition pistol to look at and play with in the mirror every night like you are the Lone Ranger or Elliot Ness. You are happy with it as it is now "pretty" again.
With a scenario like that one is it possible that all that sanding, filing and polishing to make the slight very subtle changes we see here on this EXP No 8? Does that make it fake? No. Does that make it illegal? No. Does that kill the collector value? Yeap....
If you don't think Turnbull restores some of these old guns and replace a lot of the little parts with modern repro parts that are made to be as close to the original as possible then you should go check out their website. They have a gallery of before and after photos.
They are not the only ones around that does that same thing everyday and it's legal. It's a bunch of bs and ignorant on the part of the owner of the gun but they can do it without asking any of us for our permission. I never had it done but I bought one last year for $2500 and the idiot I bought it from paid $4500 to have them ruin the value and help him loose an additional two grand.
Andouille
04-01-2014, 03:59
Straight up, I am not a high end collector of anything, and have absolutely no dog in this fight. My "collection" would almost certainly be called an "accumulation" of "daily drivers", as they'd say in the collector car world. Whilst I probably have the wherewithal to amass a reasonably decent collection of high-end M1911's, I suffer from lacking the time, interest and emotional attachment for the pursuit of that kind of excellence, especially considering the committment to fakery that seems rampant in any/all subset(s) of firearms collecting.
Those are my shortcomings, and more power to those who keep their eyes on the prize.
But here's the deal: Any pistol sent off to Turnbull or anybody else, for the aforementioned sanding, filing, polishing, miscellaneous replacement of small parts, re-engraving of markings and whatnot, I believe they call this "restoration", is fine and good and certainly nice to look at, when represented as such. But when that gun is later represented as an original pistol, that misrepresentation would convert the restoration into a fake.
The misrepresentation may be inadvertant thru ignorance, but it's still a fake in my somewhat narrow-minded world-view. Restoration work sure as shootin' ain't original. This having been said thru some past experience in getting into, and subsequently out of, several different types of collector firearms. Keep one hand on your wallet at all times, gentlemen, and your other two hands on your genitals.
I appologize in advance if I've ruffled anybody's feathers by intruding into a space I really don't belong in, and will now remove myself from the discussion, whilst not allowing the screen door to smack me in the behind as I exit.
Sounds like somebody has more money than brains.
Scott Gahimer
04-01-2014, 05:42
With a scenario like that one is it possible that all that sanding, filing and polishing to make the slight very subtle changes we see here on this EXP No 8? Does that make it fake? No. Does that make it illegal? No. Does that kill the collector value? Yeap....
With all due respect, your hypothesis is flawed. Sanding, filing, polishing, etc. will only remove metal. It will not completely alter the grip tang by making it larger and adding metal. Nor can you over some the pin position issue in the grip tang area of M1911 and M1911A1 pistols.
The chances of a genuine US&S receiver being altered through restoration to the point the grip tang metal grows and pin holes are relocated is beyond calculating. I suspect it would be easier to stretch a VW out into a Park Avenue.
Wow! Where is the love for Turnbull? Though I agree that there are many pitfalls in the restoration nation, there is a place in the world for Turnbull. I have a very rare 1911 with ALL the parts that came with it from the factory. Its condition however is deplorable. Much of the finish gone, the original diamond stocks worn almost smooth, file marks where someone tried to remove the serial # but didn't succeed, the serial # electropenciled four places on the frame and two other parts, the bore pretty much shot out, etc. Little to no collector value. I could use it as a shooter or parts it out for a great deal of money. But because it is such a rare variant and and every part is original to the pistol, I choose to have Turnbull restore it. Years from now when Turnbull is long gone will his restorations have their own place in the collecting world? I have an Ithaca 1911a1 purchased through the NRA in 1962 for $17.50 with the original paper work. It is original and correct in excellent condition with the parkerized feed ramp anomaly. Very few in 1962 thought that 50 years later it would be a very collectible pistol worth maybe north of two grand. Something to think about.
Johnny P
04-01-2014, 07:27
I can't think of any restoration from the past that has become collectible today. If you like Turnbull restorations that is fine, but just don't expect them to ever become collectible because they are a "Turnbull". Colt Walkers typically come in well worn condition, but how many owners would opt for a restoration.
Among Sharps rifles one of the most desirable is a "Fort Griffin" shipped rifle. Fort Griffin, Texas was in the middle of buffalo country, and any Sharps shipped there wasn't used for Sunday evening target shooting. They were bought by buffalo hunters, and were just one of the hunters tools. They are found in very used and worn out condition, but command high prices because their history is known, not because they really look nice.
The late Bill Adair told of putting serial numbers on 1911 receivers that had no serial number. He simply used the serial number requested by the customer. How much history is that?
Am I missing something here?
Gordon posts his latest and greatest gun.
The way I understand it, Scott tells him that there may be issues with the gun (apparently for the second time now).
Instead of saying, "Thank you Scott for pointing out the issues", Gordon proceeds to personally attack Scott.
He braggs that this $7000 is just a dime in the bucket to him.
And after all that, in the end, he FINALLY states that he may return the pistol?
Maybe Gordon should do more research before he throws money at people.
Tommy2guns
04-01-2014, 12:08
Lesson learned and point taken. There are pieces out there that come into the market everyday via online auction sites, gun shows, trade groups and forums like this as well as the big and small auction houses. Reputable auction houses offer no strings attached refunds for questionable or problem items sold thru them. A good dealer will offer a refund if presented with the same situation. Individuals that sell on ebay or other auction sites have the ability to decline refunding your money, albeit bad and unscrupulous to do so. It is all in how someone handles this type of situation that speaks of their character that point forward.
I read something Jim Supica wrote somewhere about these type of situations and it is all too true. Like it or not, if you buy a bogus item the only person you can blame is yourself. It is your wallet and your responsibility to make educated decisions related to what is in it.
Keep your powder dry and your fuses handy.
IN RESPONSE TO: It is all in how someone handles this type of situation that speaks of their character that point forward.
Well I don't think bashing the messenger and telling everybody that you are soo rich that it really is not a big deal says much about someones character.
At a nationally advertised auction several years ago there happened to be an antique Winchester lever that the seller was saying was factory original case colors & bluing............... Someone called Doug Turnbull up, gave him the model number & the serial number & asked if Doug had restored that rifle............... Long story made short, they told Doug where it was & got him photos of it...... Doug called the auction house & told them that he had restored that particular rifle, & had given it back to the customer with a written list of everything that they had done to it, while the restoration was underway...............It was my understanding that the rifle was pulled from the sale.
I've seen a number of online auctions (GG, AA) where the seller amended his description after he was set straight regarding an inaccuracy in his description. In my experience, most gun store owners haven't got much knowledge regarding collectible firearms. In fact some that I've known shy away from them because it's just too easy to get burned and you are dealing with a select market. It's probably impossible for every auction to have and expert on hand who knows everything regarding the many collectible firearms available.
Tommy2guns
04-02-2014, 01:43
Also if anyone noted the listing at RIAC regarding one of the early Colt prototypes that they had listed as original finish not too long ago and have a gunsmith contact them and state he blued the gun. And he blued it for Scott Meadows. So what part of that makes you scratch your head the most?
I truly hate to see these oneupmanship pissing matches amongst our membership . It would be much more pleasant to just agree to disagree and be done with it.Never mind getting into a "Battle Royale".
I have known Johnny Peppers by e-mail and at least one phone call for an Arkansas Piney Woods coon's age. I have been here since the days of Gun and Knife and poor Mark Bitting.Johnny and I have a mutual family friend from Strong,Arkansas.That being the case if I have a big ?, I get in touch with him knowing I'll get a sraight,no nonsense answer.I keep meaning to call him regarding my mint
six inch Navy Volcanic but have been busier than the towel boy in a mining camp whorehouse after the gold buyers just left,lately.If anyone of you are clued in re real volcanics,please drop me a PM.
Gordon,who is the retired CEO of a major commercial airline,has the wherewithall to buy any firearm he pleases.Charlie Clawson ( and Gordon ) are also multi thousand hour commercial pilots.Charlie Clawson,whom I have also spoken with , retired from commercial flying and took up researching and writing books.He came across as being an honourable man,as is Johnny Peppers.Neither have an axe to grind as you can't export any Military Colts from Canada to the US.Anything they told me was for info only AND gratis.Scott Gahimer has also dispensed knowledge to many tyro M1911/ M1911A1 collectors here gratuitously.
As it happens I too had a real North American Arms M1911 Government Model back when I was around 20 and living in Toronto.It looked like Caron Brothers built and finished many more slide assemblies than they did frames.My slide was very nicely done as were the small parts and grips.The frame however was rather rough and in the white,totally devoid of serial number or any other markings.The Toronto Police Dept registered it for me and stamped Their serial number ( all were in the 10 K bracket) under the LEFT grip.
I traded it for a brand new SA M14 with Canadian Arsenals ( Long Branch) who were doing a production run of NM M14 barrels at the time and had ten brand new SA M14's for testing or whatever.
I figured that I came out ahead on the deal,but the CO and Chief Design Engineer were friends who had done me many favours,so who really cared ?
Needless acrimony as seen in this thread should be beneath all of us.Such is my belief at least.Hopefully it won't happen again.Wasn't it Benj Franklin who said " If we don't hang together ,we shall surely hang seperately !" Let's all try to hang together,we have way too many lying lieberal hands against us as it is.
Cheers,
John R.
PS: A RCMP Sgt. at the Firearms Registry in Ottawa told me circa fifteen years ago AFTER I asked him,that by S/N there are EIGHT Singer M1911A1's in Canada.As you can well imagine he couldn't tell me who owned them or where they were.
My Father didn't like six inch barreled S&W's so he swapped a bottle of Scotch for a 900K M1911A1 with some USAAF Pilot and then another bottle to get a second one for his crewman in their Mosquito.Neither of them liked revolvers and in the RCAF you had a choice between a five inch Victory Model or a six inch blued Model 10 and the six incher was only if you were lucky or joined early. They did some time in Beaufighters but mostly in Mosquitos and came home in Mk X Lancasters built in Toronto ( well,Malton back then ! )
No need to personally attack those who disagree.
No need to tell everyone how rich you are.
If you post a gun on this forum you should be prepared to get comments good and bad.
No need to make it personal.
I have no horse in this race.
I truly hate to see these oneupmanship pissing matches amongst our membership .
I agree 100% with John R.
John HOLBROOK
04-04-2014, 01:15
Hey Gordon, Kori and I are looking forward to coming down to Houston to see you then on to my 64Th Sinton Texas High School Reunion, Class of 1950. There are only 11 of us left!!!!
I always like to examine rare and historic 1911s and other things, one of which I am bring with me!
Here are some US&S pistols and a few early Navy issued Colts...
http://www.fototime.com/%7B3C371548-8B44-403F-9383-E2310C1315CB%7D/origpict/DSC00765.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/%7B5202EA71-803D-4354-A5BE-95821D9FDC12%7D/origpict/Copy%2520%282%29%2520of%2520USS-1.jpg
Shooter5
04-04-2014, 09:10
Mr Holbrook; FYSA, I met Mr 'Swede' Boreen last year at a MOAA conference last year and he is a Pearl Harbor survivor from the USS Oklahoma.
http://www.stripes.com/news/veterans/n-c-veteran-recounts-horrors-of-pearl-harbor-experience-1.256606
http://article.wn.com/view/2013/12/07/NC_veteran_recounts_horrors_of_Pearl_Harbor_experi ence/
John R: a Mosquito recently flew again!
http://www.worldwarbirdnews.com/2012/09/28/mosquito-ka114-flies-in-auckland/#more-1617
John HOLBROOK
04-05-2014, 01:07
Not many folks know "The rest of the story" of the USS OKLAHOMA after she was up righted and raised from the mud of Pearl Harbor. It was determined not to refit her and nor return her to service, so she was sold for scrap and while she was being towed to CONUS, she broke tow, rolled over and sank a few hundred miles west of the Islands.
Perhaps a better and more fitting end for a proud and noble warship...... :icon_salut:
http://www.fototime.com/%7B3D81DDA2-B4B8-4AD2-B8AC-DC9694BE635B%7D/origpict/38543%2520OK%2520Right.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/%7BF793ECFF-3EC5-49C9-8AF9-353093DEEF8C%7D/origpict/38543.JPG
cplnorton
04-08-2014, 11:33
With you having #8, I'm just curious how this one compares to yours. I didn't read all the back and forth, but did notice the comments about the rear tang. Mine is the same way. But here are some pics. I'm just curious how mine stacks up to your number 8.
This has been in my friends collection from about 2001. He was richer than God and paid a small fortune for it back then and he owned over a 1000 1911's. But that doesn't make it real. He passed and I got it from the estate. I know I showed it on the 1911 forum several years ago and Scott said it was a fake. And since then when I shown it several times and it's always 50/50 real vs fake.
I know Julius Kosan really well, and he looked at it and tended to believe it was real. And I keep on trying to catch Chuck Clawson to look at it, but everytime I see him, I don't have it with me.
But the problem with these and you barely ever see two that are identical. It seems everyone you look at it, is different from the rest. So how do you know if it's real when there is so much variation in them all?
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0018_zpsa28461dd.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0010_zpsbc7b7cc0.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0011_zps50534f88.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0003_zpsf5a746b0.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0004_zps6cd051dc.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0019_zps88d16e3a.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0006_zps70657325.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0014_zpsc5d5bbf2.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/USS%20exp%209/DSC_0016_zps7b57bbc5.jpg
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/DSC_0009_zps42700027.jpg
Johnny P
04-08-2014, 03:24
That looks like an aftermarket receiver.
Scott Gahimer
04-08-2014, 04:09
Agreed. Receiver is not US&S... not even USGI.
Duane Hansen
04-08-2014, 04:14
You can see the indentation where the old serial number and United States Property markings were ground off. The new numbers and lettering are even more crude than the other EXP pistols that I've seen and that were shown in the previous pictures.
Scott Gahimer
04-08-2014, 04:22
It's an Argentinean receiver.
Here are photos of another fake where they used an Argentinean receiver, and the moron who made it wasn't even bright enough to remove the internal serial number. BATF liked this one and last I heard, they were going after the guy.
http://i57.tinypic.com/abl8w2.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/25qgms6.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/2znzb4z.jpg
cplnorton
04-08-2014, 05:46
I honestly do think it's a USGI frame. The only reason I say this is because I can see in the right light what looks like a very faint M1911A1 US ARMY on the right side of the frame. It's been removed as well. And in that area the receiver is divited as with metal removed. It's a ghost image sort of like how you sand off a cartouche in wood, and can still see it somewhat in the right light.
But there is no way I could ever get a pic of it. I have to have it in very bright sunlight and twist and turn it to make out where it was. I don't know if there were any commercial guns made that had markings similar to that in that spot or not. And maybe that would explain it. But it does appear to have had at one time the M1911A1 US ARMY markings that you see on WWII guns. Which just adds more to the mystery of it.
I have really always felt these Experimental were more a leap of faith than anything. It would be very easy to fake one if you wanted to.
As for this one. I have very found memories of my friend who was the previous owner. He is the one who got me started on 1911's and this one I have very fond memories with. That is the reason I have it mostly, just out of remembrance of out talks and the friendship we had. He was one heck of a guy and is dearly missed everyday. He was an old Korean War vet and a drinker and womanizer till the day he died. He was in his mid 70's, dating 20 year old girls and had a medicine cabinet full of viagra. He was a blast to be around and sort of a second father to me. He was a good guy.
Scott Gahimer
04-08-2014, 06:12
All you have to do is look at the recoil spring housing (how big it is) and all the extra metal that shows along the side of the stocks to know it is not a USGI receiver. There is a slight possibility it could be an aftermarket cast receiver. But, if forged, the only receivers that have the front straps and recoil spring housings not fully rounded are the Argentinean pistols. With all due respect, it's just wishful thinking to say or wish it is USGI. None of the USGI receivers have the traits of the Argie. Additionally, the grip tang is correctly shaped for the Argie, too.
cplnorton
04-08-2014, 06:29
Gotcha, I see what you are saying. I might have to borrow a friends Argentina and try to look at them side by side and get measurements. Both sides of the frame have been ground down a lot. Almost like they put it on a huge belt sander or something and removed the metal. The frame has had a lot of metal removed. I can tell as the mag release protrudes out on each side much further than it should. The receiver is not cast and does appear to be forged, so you very well might be right. I am not ever going to make claims of originality on this one, or really any Experimental to be honest. I just don't know enough. I do believe I see the Army markings but maybe I'm mistaken. It wouldn't be the first time.
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