Morphy Bogus Guns

[Tommy2guns]

Now that we seem to have put this other issue to bed hopefully I have a new ask of the detractors in chief. When any of us see a gun online no matter where it claims to be we have no proof that it is really in that person or organization's possession.

Online photos don't hold water in court if they are generic and don't give enough detail that could prove they are authentic photos of the actual item shown. Photos can be doctored up to appear to be something they are not. And if not shown with something that can date them to that current place in time within reason, we have no real way to know when or where a photo was taken.

But, when you walk into an auction such as Morphys as Mr. Gahaimer has stated he did in January and witnessed these highly illegal, bogus, counterfeit firearms such as a Colt 38 Super, serial number 3 why didn't the BATF get involved?

That auction house holds a class 3 ffl. If you call the BATF and lodge a charge like that, I would bet they would have visited with the auction house fairly quickly. I have seen a lot of other negative commentaries about Singers at RIAC and a myriad of other guns get bashed by some of you guys for a long time. How is it the BATF hasn't acted on one of these allegations to any point that it became public info?

They may be able to sweep something under the rug on occasion but these comments and allegations are made all the time but you never hear of any auction house being called on the carpet.

If you want to get rid of the fakers or their items seems that ruining their selling venues could be very effective if the auctions became more accountable.

[Waltherman]

Why don't you call the ATF ? Be sure and report
what they tell you.

[joem]

Read the very fine print from RIA about sales of items. It may open your eyes.

[anton67]

IN RESPONSE TO: Why didn't the BATF get involved

FIRST OFF I AM NOT ACCUSING ANYONE OF SELLING FAKE OR FORGED FIREARMS. I AM NOT AN EXPERT NOR DO I CLAIM TO BE.
I will still try to answer your question ASSUMING a HYPOTHETICAL situation where someone was selling a forged or faked firearm:

What Federal Firearms law would the seller be violating n the hypothetical?

If someone is selling a faked firearm, a theft or forgery charge may lie but local authorities would prosecute the case.
In that situation, law enforcement would have to prove "knowledge" on the part of the seller or that the seller knew or had reason to know that the gun was faked/forged.

Also, in PA there is a firearms charge that could lie if the serial number of a particular firearm is altered or obliterated, again to be prosecuted by local authorities.

I personally purchased a Luger and later found out that the serial number on the frame was changed.
In that case I was able to tell the seller that he sold me a gun with an altered serial number and that criminal charges could lie.
Needless to say I got my money back.

[Johnny P]

It really isn't hypothetical. From Section 922 Unlawful Acts of the 1968 Gun Control Law.

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or

receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the

importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or

manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any

time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

[Tommy2guns]

I have never done just that, read the fine print at RIAC. Read it now and see that it leaves them out of any responsibility no matter what the issue is. It is a pretty crappy policy for the customer.

[Tommy2guns]

I did the whole bogus 1917 Navy Luger thing several years ago. I knew nothing about Lugers and still don't now. I took this gun in trade for another item. Never liked Lugers because of what evil I thought they represented. Put the gun up for sale on auction arms and started getting emails from those Luger loving pedophiles out there. Don't they call them lugerphiles?

Anyway I had a email from the chief bottle washer on Lugers up North somewhere named Rabinowitz. He tells me the gun was altered, not restored but screwed with. He based his entire career rep on one little pin. The toggle was either too big or small and it indicated the rest of the gun would be questionable. I got a Luger text, studied it and found his opinion totally accurate.

I pulled the auction and relisted it with the information disclosed in the first sentence. Funny part was it sold anyway and brought $500 or so dollars more than I had in mind when I thought it was correct and authentic.

Only Luger I ever owned and probably will be the last.

[anton67]

IN RESPONSE TO: Section 922 Unlawful Acts of the 1968 Gun Control Law.

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or

receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the

importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or

manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any

time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

I still think you would have more luck with local law enforcement in that type of scenario.

[KeithNyst]

An interesting aspect is that the way the law is written, it appears a pistol would have to have been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce at some time for the law to apply .... "in interstate or foreign commerce" of the first part of the law, and the "and at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce" of the second part of the law.

I wonder if a military shipment from one state to another would classify as "interstate commerce" shipment? If it did not, then I would think that the BATF/authoriteis would have to prove there had been an interstate commerce shipment at some point in the weapons life. :icon_scratch:

[da gimp]

When say Colt, Ithaca, RR, RI, SA etc etc etc made those military contract 1911's & 1911A1's, after they made them, & after they were inspected & accepted by the military inspectors...... they were then shipped to various military depots for the most part, where they were then kept until they were sent to a particular division or quartermaster............if they were EVER shipped anywhere, by anyone (maker, seller/buyer) they have been in interstate commerce the feds say...............

[ignats]

In this particular case, it would be a no brainer. The gun was most likely manufactured in Connecticut if made by Colt and was sold where? However, I don't think they need to prove it was moved interstate in order for the law to apply. The Federal Government wrote that law and ATF enforces it. In reality, I don't think they'd be all that interested in one particular instance. However, I for one, wouldn't want to go through the hassle of hiring an attorney etc etc to defend myself or become a person of interest with them. Then of course there are laws that might have been violated at the state level not to mention the possibility of criminal fraud in misrepresenting it as something it is not. It's just too messy to try to play Clarence Darrow or Erin Brockovitch with. YMMV.

[dave]

Have a case in MI, in all the papers. Felon has 3 guns and is showing 'gun safety' to girl friend. Did several demenstrations and put the gun to his head and killed himslf!
Guns registered to another owner. Paper says he had them illegally but nothing about investigating/arresting the gun owners. Nothing about guns stolen!
You think the feds will charge the owners? Doubt it!

And the ATF is not into going after fraud (outside the serial number/maker issue, even that is not about fraud!).

[ignats]

You're story is a situation that Darwined itself out and that probably satisifies most law enforcement agencies. Clearly, anyone who let him have the guns might be in violation, but what do you bet they would say the guy must of stolen them and didn't know it. Chances are the local PD will confiscate them all. As far as fraud investigations, that would most likely be by local authorities if someone made a complaint. Fed would probably only get involved if the person committing the offenses was dealing interstate. I don't think you example has much to do with what we're talking about here.