Question re reloading with hard cast lead bullets

[Mark in Ottawa]

I have not been able to purchase any .303 bullets for some time so I decided to order some hard cast lead .303s from a small company that produces this type of bullet and could actually supply them.

The bullets have a small flat spot at the tip and a crimping groove (cannelure ?) about a third of the way down from the tip. There are also two grooves farther down that appear to be filled with a waxy substance

When I was setting up my dies, I decided to test things by inserting one of these bullets in an empty cartridge. I found that when I inserted the bullet to the level of the crimping groove, the base was somewhat deeper into the case than would be normal with the jacketed Speer or Hornady bullets that I usually use and the overall length of the cartridge was shorter than normal.

My question is, is this a problem? Will the deeper seated bullet cause an increase in pressure or some other problem? If this does cause increased pressure, is it possible to insert the bullets to the level of one of the wax filled grooves. Also, does anyone know the purpose of the other wax filled grooves?

Thanks for your help

Mark

[4F4Nam]

The waxy substance in the other grooves is actually lube. The lube helps to reduce leading of the bore somewhat. As far as pressure goes, you should be reducing your loads for use with cast bullets so I don't think that is a concern. A shorter overall length which sets the bullet farther back essentially giving you more free-bore can actually reduce chamber pressure. I don't htink you have anything to be concerned about but PLEASE consult a cast bullet loading manual.
Hope I have helped.

Ed

[Parashooter]

In general it's best to -

Seat cast bullets so base is no deeper than beginning of neck.
Pay no attention to location of "crimping" groove.
Omit crimp.

[psteinmayer]

I'm now starting to work with cast for one of my Krags. I am seating to just beyond the first lube ring with no crimp. I've been told it's ok to seat a little long and let the start of the rifling final seat the bullet to eliminate the jump... and increase accuracy.

Is this for a Type 99 Arisaka or a British 303? Both use the same bullet size.

[Tuna]

And while were at it we might as well touch on the proper powders to be using for cast loads. You do not in general use the same powders you would use for jacketed rounds. You will be looking at pistol and shotgun powders again in general for your loads. But as recommended get a good manual on cast reloading.

[kcw]

Mark,
What weight bullet are you using? Do they have gas checks? My 1st suggestion would be for you review several loading manuals for their powder/load suggestions for the weight of cast bullet you're using. My own preference is to load cast out to the OAL that "jump" is minimal (ie. 005") or even to the point that the bullet slightly engages the rifling. I would suggest that you start out having a least some jump and slowly work your way in tighter, if that's where you eventually want to go.
Depending on the manuals you're referencing, you'll find that you can use a wider variety of powders than normally used for jacketed bullets. In the 30.06, I've had very good luck using some VERY slow powders (ie 4831 speed).
What diameter bullet did you buy? 303 rifles are known to have bores of varying groove diameter. If you can obtain a good "bullet diameter to groove" match, your 303 can be very accurate with cast, provided that the bore isn't pitted.

[mikld]

I would highly recommend a reloading manual that deals primarily with shooting lead bullets. Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook is prolly the most popular. I'd suggest thr 3rd Edition if you can find one, but a 4th Edition will do. The 3rd seems to be a bit more new caster friendly. In the handbook you will see reloading data for your particular bullet and the suggested OAL (recommended powders and charges). Often the crimp groove is placed for a particular cartridge, and may not align with the case mouth in your particular cartridge. Just disregard it.

Bullet lubes are also defined in the handbook. IMO, bullet lubes help seal the bore and provide some lubrication, but mostly provide a gas seal. Most of the commercial casters use a lube that is too hard, and mostly to insure it stays in place during shipping.

Loading lead bullets need a slightly different process, but not so different that it can't be done the first time out. Neck sizing/tension may need to be different, and case mouth flaring will probably be needed.

Don't let the differences scare you away, shooting lead has it's distinct followers and is quite satisfying. I've been casting and shooting lead bullets in my guns for nearly 25 years (I own a few guns that have never shot a jacketed bullet), and the satisfaction it just a bit above the satisfaction I get from reloading...

check this place out; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php

[joem]

I tried some hard cast bullets for a K98. The accuracy results were less than poor and they were not gas checked bullets. A waste of time and powder.

[kcw]

I tried some hard cast bullets for a K98. The accuracy results were less than poor and they were not gas checked bullets. A waste of time and powder.

The problem with a non check bullet is that you're limited to a max velocity of around 1,600fps. Typically you can do 2,200 fps with a checked bullet, sometimes a bit more.

[joem]

The problem with a non check bullet is that you're limited to a max velocity of around 1,600fps. Typically you can do 2,200 fps with a checked bullet, sometimes a bit more.

I didn't have any gas checked bullets but I though I'd give it a try anyway.

[jimb]

Then I suggest a starting load of 10 grains of Unique or the same of Red Dot. Those are nice mild loads and should be light enough to prevent leading if the bullet is of the proper size. Slug your barrel. The bullet should be .001 - .002 over the bore diameter.

[Parashooter]

. . . The bullet should be .001 - .002 over the bore diameter.

I get better results when bullets are closer to groove diameter.

http://i51.tinypic.com/6fxd37.jpg

[Mark in Ottawa]

Thanks for all this

I have three loading manuals including Lymans but I di not know that they had one specifically for cast bullets. I will see if I can get hold of a copy

Mark

[adrians]

What I normally do when I get a rifle I haven't loaded for yet is ,, take a fired case and hand seat the bullet in the neck and chamber it , the rifling will seat the bullet (hopefully:icon_lol:) to it's max length, then carefully open the bolt and extract the case , hopefully the bullet is still in the neck of the case and not in the chamber ( it's not a big deal if it gets stuck ,a cleaning rod will tap it out) .

I take a measurement of the "dummy" round and take a couple of thou off the total and that will be my overall length, put the "dummy in my press ,screw the seating button down until it just touches the bullet and screw it in a tad more then lock that sucker down .

I only use lead bullets in all my rifles and I think it's the easiest way to get your O A L, then again maybe not,,,,:icon_twisted:.

Oh and slug the barrel to see what size bullet it likes, as mentioned 0.001-0.002 over size is the way to go.

[kcw]

What I normally do when I get a rifle I haven't loaded for yet is ,, take a fired case and hand seat the bullet in the neck and chamber it , the rifling will seat the bullet (hopefully:icon_lol:) to it's max length, then carefully open the bolt and extract the case , hopefully the bullet is still in the neck of the case and not in the chamber ( it's not a big deal if it gets stuck ,a cleaning rod will tap it out) .

I take a measurement of the "dummy" round and take a couple of thou off the total and that will be my overall length, put the "dummy in my press ,screw the seating button down until it just touches the bullet and screw it in a tad more then lock that sucker down .

I only use lead bullets in all my rifles and I think it's the easiest way to get your O A L, then again maybe not,,,,:icon_twisted:.

Oh and slug the barrel to see what size bullet it likes, as mentioned 0.001-0.002 over size is the way to go.

That's also how I determine the max OAL with a particular bullet in a specific chamber. The trick when using the test casing & bullet is to find a happy medium wherein the tension put upon the cast bullet is not so great as to drive the bullet into the rifling, yet not so weak that the case will pull off the bullet when the bolt is drawn back. All you want to see are four small marks (in a four groove barrel) engraved by the end of the rifling upon the nose of the bullet. I like to use a needle noose plier to ever so slightly bend in the mouth of a fired case so as to grip the bullet just so. A bit of experimentation is needed. I like to get the bullet started in the case before I place it in the chamber. I even like to get the rim of the case under the extractor. Of course records must be kept as to the max OAL with a particular bullet in a particular gun. That figure serves as a benchmark for determining "jump", or in instances where you may wish to actually push a bullet a few thousands onto the rifling.

[Matt Anthony]

Loading cast bullets is a world of it's own. It's the reality of 1600 to 2200 fps versus the 2500 to 4000 fps for jacketed bullets. It takes one to study the principals and understanding of this naked bullet to achieve superior results. It can be done, however there are many changes you will be doing in the process.
The Lyman older books and the newer books are excellent starters and refreshers for the seasoned cast bullet shooter.
I can only say that I can shoot one hole groups at 100 yards with a 308 Rem. 700 varmint using a Hoch 185 gr. hard cast nose pour bullet How long did this take me.......Well, over 30 years of starting and stopping due to frustrations and the lack of patience. Seems once I turned 60, I relaxed and honestly took it seriously to the point of rediculousness. However, I now can brag that I have 5 calibers from 22 to 30 that will produce one hole groups at 100 yards consistantly week after week! My 225438 Lyman gas checked 44 gr. 22 cal. bullet using HB alloy from Roto Metals in my 222 Remington will hit aspirins at 100 yards. I developed this 1450 fps load due to the fact we can't find 22 rimfire right now, and with the prices of rimfire, I can actually make up 222 rounds 2 cents cheaper. I must say it's so much fun to see how accurate these rounds are and how much fun the competition is.
Matt