Bad reloading decision

[cwbuff]

A friend of mine was not getting the accuracy he expected from his rifle. So he decided the bullet needed to be are larger diameter. He is lucky the rifle was not destroyed. In the pic, check out the normal case head on the right vs the "high pressure" case head on the left.
26908

[leftyo]

just how much bigger of a bullet did he use?

[randy langford]

I wouldn't think a round with a bullet very much larger than standard would even chamber. Have you personally examined the case in photo and one of his finished rounds, just wondering?

[mold maker]

Something fishy here.

[psteinmayer]

Why do the rims appear to be different size? Higher pressures will certainly bulge a case, but shouldn't increase in rim diameter. I think that photo is suspicious.

[cwbuff]

just how much bigger of a bullet did he use?
The standard bullet is .264, he used a .268. These are long bullets in 6.5mm

[cwbuff]

I wouldn't think a round with a bullet very much larger than standard would even chamber. Have you personally examined the case in photo and one of his finished rounds, just wondering?
I have the case, but don't recall the finished round.

[cwbuff]

Why do the rims appear to be different size? Higher pressures will certainly bulge a case, but shouldn't increase in rim diameter. I think that photo is suspicious.
The photo was done by standing a good and the bad case on my scanner. What you see is how that case was extracted from the rifle.

[joem]

A friend of mine was not getting the accuracy he expected from his rifle. So he decided the bullet needed to be are larger diameter. He is lucky the rifle was not destroyed. In the pic, check out the normal case head on the right vs the "high pressure" case head on the left.
26908

It looks to me that the high pressure case on the left has clearer head stamps that the right. Is the image reversed as the one on the right looks like the head stamp is somewhat mashed.

[cwbuff]

It looks to me that the high pressure case on the left has clearer head stamps that the right. Is the image reversed as the one on the right looks like the head stamp is somewhat mashed.
The high pressure case is on the right, the normal case is on the left.

[Major Tom]

psteinmayer is right. Looks very suspicious. Case heads do not expand like that.

[Parashooter]

. . . Case heads do not expand like that.

They do when it's good brass, the breech gives solid support, and the excessive pressure is therefore confined in the case.

http://i59.tinypic.com/9jlkb5.jpg

Case on right is normal, deprimed, .284 Win. formed to 7.5x55. Case on left was the same size until fired with the wrong powder (WC846 instead of WC852), generating estimated 82,000 psi. (Velocity of the 168-grain bullet was 3220 fps on the chronograph I was using - normal is ~2700.) Head expanded uniformly, with smooth K31 bolt face containing gas perfectly despite significant primer pocket expansion. Recoil was stiff but no gas escaped. Quality brass can take a lot of abuse.

The .268" Hornady 160-gr. bullet, designed for the 6.5 Carcano, has a history of pressure anomalies in long-throated barrels, particularly with slow-burning powders, apparently from sticking in the leade before sufficient pressure has built to overcome engraving resistance.

[dave]

Going from .264 to .268 should not raise pressure that much. Germans went from .318 to .323 with no problem, they did not rebore altho they did relieve chamber throat.

[Hefights]

With that much apparent difference in diameter, is the rifle damaged? Can you post a picture of the fired cases standing side by side? Chambers do not grow or stretch that much without a big problem. So perhaps there was a "flow" in the brass somehow but it survived, but the chamber cannot have stretched that much in diameter.

[Matt Anthony]

With that much apparent difference in diameter, is the rifle damaged? Can you post a picture of the fired cases standing side by side? Chambers do not grow or stretch that much without a big problem. So perhaps there was a "flow" in the brass somehow but it survived, but the chamber cannot have stretched that much in diameter.

For someone to use the wrong size bullet, when it's published as plain as day in every reloading manual, is just plain stupid! Yep I said it, STUPID and remember you can't fix stupid. Any time you reload any cartridge, double check your components, measure and weigh each component so there is no chance of making a very costly and stupid mistake that could cause harm to others and yourself.
Matt
Matt

[cwbuff]

In the this case the case head did expand. After the fired the cartridge, he could not open the bolt on the rifle - resulting in a trip to the gunsmith. The gun checked out with no damage. It is a Steyr Mannlicher-Shönauer 1903 Mountain Carbine. I'll take a pic of the standing cartridges today and post them. I'll also put the calipers on the case heads.

[cwbuff]

For someone to use the wrong size bullet, when it's published as plain as day in every reloading manual, is just plain stupid! Yep I said it, STUPID and remember you can't fix stupid. Any time you reload any cartridge, double check your components, measure and weigh each component so there is no chance of making a very costly and stupid mistake that could cause harm to others and yourself.
Matt
Matt
He had read on the web that some barrels on this gun were over sized and to use the larger bullet. So that is what he did. But he did so without slugging the bore to see what the barrel diameter actually was. DUMB - but lucky.

[cwbuff]

Good case on left, bad case on right
26918

[Hefights]

Wow, looks like it expanded and stayed that way, never "shrunk back" a little to allow extraction. So it just stayed "stuck to the chamber". You learn something every day.

[cwbuff]

Here are some case dimensions:
Case head: good=0.451", bad=0.474" to 0.484" (not round)
Primer pocket: good=0.205", bad=0.235"

[leftyo]

put enough pressure to it, and brass will flow wherever it can from any part of the casing that isnt 100% supported.

[Matt Anthony]

He had read on the web that some barrels on this gun were over sized and to use the larger bullet. So that is what he did. But he did so without slugging the bore to see what the barrel diameter actually was. DUMB - but lucky.

Yes, he missed the part of slugging the barrel, and that was a big mistake. One of my problems with the web is there are many subjects that are stretched to the point of rediculousness! Should one believe what is published on the web? NO, read a fricken manual before you go half cocked over some tall tail that some arm chair expert types out as gospel.
For GOD'S sake, don't believe anyone, check out published loads using more than one manual so you can see if you have a misprint and buy software such as Quick Load to further your reloading practices in a safe manner.
Everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes can be avoided if you think before you act, so for the love of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, just do that, Think Before You Act!
Matt

[cwbuff]

I don't know how much pressure that case withstood, but it must have been quite high. It speaks volumes about the quality of RWS brass.

[fguffey]

How do you determine the beginning of high pressure? The answer, no one measures.

There is case head diameter, there is case head thickness, there is primer pocket diameter and there is flash hole diameter. I have a flash hole gage. I have tested suspect receivers with test loads that had the same appearance as the case heads posted by the OP.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I have tested suspect receivers with test loads that had the same appearance as the case heads posted by the OP.

With one big exception, the case heads got hammered, the hammering flattened the case head to the point is was difficult to read the head stamp. A shooter borrowed a rifle from a friend, purchased ammo then proceeded to the range. After the first shot he went to a smith for help in extracting the case. Seems he purchased 308 W ammo for a 25/06. The case head was flattened to the point it could not be read. The smith suspected a mistake was made, he asked to see the receipt for the ammo and what was left (19 rounds) of the new box of ammo,

Point: If the sales slip read 25/06 and the new box of ammo was 308 W blame the sales person, the sales slip and new box of ammo agreed, both were for 308W.

F. Guffey

[Johnny P]

This always reminds me of the guy that chambered his 6.5 Arisaka chambered for .30-06. He said it kicked like hell, but the .308 bullets made it down the .264 barrel. The American Rifleman got the rifle and showed bullets fired through the rifle which were almost 2 inches long after being squeezed down.

I agree that most cases I have seen with blown primers have most of the case markings wiped off.

[fguffey]

Johnny P.
This always reminds me of the guy that chambered his 6.5 Arisaka chambered for .30-06

Kicked like a mule, the pressure was equal between the front of the chamber and the rear of the chamber, no recoil, then the reduced diameter of the barrel would control gas escape like an orifice. Those that have made mistakes normally recognize a difference in sound and less recoil. Those that make and design bullets walk the range.

The shooter that fired the 308w in the 25/06 started another rumor about the bullet and how long it was when it left the barrel. I disagreed, the difference in the three hours it took to remove the case and destroying the rifle was the choice of bullets. Had he spent a few more dollars for a box of ammo with good bullets he would have destroyed the rifle.

Factors and off the lands, the 308 W had a jump meaning it had a running start. Time as a factor, had the 308 W bullet been close the lands he would have destroyed the rifle.

F. Guffey

[Matt Anthony]

This always reminds me of the guy that chambered his 6.5 Arisaka chambered for .30-06. He said it kicked like hell, but the .308 bullets made it down the .264 barrel. The American Rifleman got the rifle and showed bullets fired through the rifle which were almost 2 inches long after being squeezed down.

I agree that most cases I have seen with blown primers have most of the case markings wiped off.

I sure wish you could find that article and post it here as Mr. FG doesn't believe it happened, he called it a rumor. I remember FG years ago on this forum, he left for years. Better to just ignore him, than try and make sense with his rants.
Matt

[fguffey]

I sure wish you could find that article and post it here as Mr. FG doesn't believe it happened,

Matt Anthony, are you that desperate for attention?

A picture of two case heads . one fired with normal pressure, the other fired with excessive pressure and designed to lead members to believe the excessive pressure had no effect on the case head stamping.

I have test fired receivers that were believed to be suspect, the case heads compressed and increased in diameter, the flash hole increased in diameter, the primer pocket increased in diameter, at the same time the case body locked onto the chamber and because you are so desperate for attention tell me what happened next.

I have Japanese rifles, two are in parts, have you ever taken a Japanese rifle apart, it is something like seeing something so ugly you just can not get it out of your mind. There is something about the receiver that is a conflict about what you see and what you hear.

As I have always said "forget the receiver and that stuff you hear about the strongest receiver in the world, give me the cases"

Yes, I found the old forum disturbing, I left, many others left. You did not care enough about the old forum to get involved. Then the archives, all gone, except, I made drafts.

F. Guffey

[Parashooter]

. . . Better to just ignore him, than try and make sense with his rants.
Matt

By not following your own advice to ignore him you've managed to set him off again! Listen, it's clear FG has some cognitive issues - but he also has considerable experience and sometimes hides useful information among the tangles of his imagination. If you can get past the masses of chaff, there's occasionally a grain of wisdom in there.

[fguffey]

The first time I read the story about the 30/06 chamber, I suggested it would be impossible for someone to run a 30/06 reamer into a 65mm50 chamber. Then the story was modified, they changed the part about using a 30/06 reamer, they claimed he drilled the .264 barrel with a 308????? drill.

And then? I said that would not work because the rifle would be without a forcing cone, meaning the bullet would be sized from 308 to 6.5MM/.264. Then they changed that story.

I did say I have a 6.5mm50/257 Roberts reamer, I think nothing of chambering the 6.5mm50 to 6.5mm/257 Roberts,

Then I suggested reaming the chamber to 6.5mm06. I have heard the story about the man that chambered the Japanese rifle to 30/06 three times in the last two months. . I suggested the story start with "Once upon a time etc.".

F. Guffey

[Parashooter]

http://i60.tinypic.com/2vi10cm.jpg

[Matt Anthony]

http://i60.tinypic.com/2vi10cm.jpg

Thanks Parashooter! I also read of a Type 99 rifle that was deliberately overloaded with pistol powder, tied to a truck tire and remotely fired using a long string. They shot it many times and could not blow the action up. They did have to hammer the bolt open, but there was no damage.
Matt

[Matt Anthony]

By not following your own advice to ignore him you've managed to set him off again! Listen, it's clear FG has some cognitive issues - but he also has considerable experience and sometimes hides useful information among the tangles of his imagination. If you can get past the masses of chaff, there's occasionally a grain of wisdom in there.

I apologize for bringing it up and will not mention it again.
Matt

[Johnny P]

I sure wish you could find that article and post it here as Mr. FG doesn't believe it happened, he called it a rumor. I remember FG years ago on this forum, he left for years. Better to just ignore him, than try and make sense with his rants.
Matt

I reserve a special place for those that have the only opinion that counts. They exist only to prove everyone else on the forum incapable of having a sane thought.

Here is the photo from the May 1959 AR article, page 52 and 53. Optical illusion I suppose on the .308 bullets appearing longer after being fired through the 6.5 bore. I guess the owner of the rifle also lied about it kicking.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2r47h5e.jpg

[Matt Anthony]

I reserve a special place for those that have the only opinion that counts. They exist only to prove everyone else on the forum incapable of having a sane thought.

Here is the photo from the May 1959 AR article, page 52 and 53. Optical illusion I suppose on the .308 bullets appearing longer after being fired through the 6.5 bore. I guess the owner of the rifle also lied about it kicking.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2r47h5e.jpg

Thanks for posting the pics. Talk about strong, that action is the definition of "Bullet Proof"! PO Ackley after WWII was the one that tested numerous military actions for strength. I don't know where the information on his testing can be found. Maybe someone out there knows?
Matt

[madsenshooter]

The dimensions the OP gave for the cases might indicate this rifle has been rechambered to something else. OK as long as loads have little pressure, but get enough pressure to fully blow the case out.....

[Dolt]

Thanks for posting the pics. Talk about strong, that action is the definition of "Bullet Proof"! PO Ackley after WWII was the one that tested numerous military actions for strength. I don't know where the information on his testing can be found. Maybe someone out there knows?
Matt

I've got a copy of the book he authored regarding the testing of military actions. It is quite interesting and I would put it on this site if someone can advise me how to do it.

[joem]

A while back I talked to a fellow that said he used to reload but quit. I asked him the reason and he told this story: He had a rifle chambered for .30-06. It shot low so he kept adding powder because he thought the bullet was dropping. Soon he couldn't open the bolt so he sent it to the manufacture for repair. Got it back and fired a few more over pressure rounds, locked up again. Sent it to manufacture for repair. Fired one more and locked it up again. This time the manufacture told him not to send it in again or they would scrap the rifle. Thank goodness he doesn't reload anymore and he still has all his parts.

[RED]

Once upon a time I fired a 8X57 round in a 1903A3 and the only damage to the rifle was a ring in the bore about 1/2 way down the barrel. The 8MM bullet is .013" larger than the .308. The fact the case is shorter is likely the reason there was not a catastrophic failure. Afterwards, I quit using cut down and resized '06 brass to form 8X57 cases. Point being the .268 Caracano bullet is only .004 larger than the 6.5MM.

[Former Cav]

I have a friend who was loading a 6mm remington 700 rifle up to the MAX (and beyond as far as I was concerned).
this was his praire dog rifle.
He had to use a rubber mallet to open the bolt each time he fired!!!
One time, he hit the bolt handle and it came OFF of the bolt (it was silver soldered on apparently).
So, he took the rifle to a custom gunsmith he uses, and the bolt and action in that rifle were destroyed. The metal had turned extremely granular (looked like a bunch of small bee bees).
Only salvageable part was the stock.
I was shooting a 243 with a 75 grain bullet (because that was all that was available at the time.........NOT my first choice....but it worked quite well even with the crappy ballistic coef)
It came out at 3030 FPS. He mocked me and said I needed to crank it up to 3600 or so. I laughed and said, I don't want to work the rifle, or my shoulder hard and besides, the prairie doesn't notice if he died a millisecond sooner or later anyhow.

[buttebob]

I remember reading the American Rifleman article about firing the rechambered 6.5 Arisaka. I also read about P.O. Ackley's testing of the Type 99 and if I remember correctly he said the pressure was 100,000 psi.
I worked at a gun shop for several years and I had a couple of boys come in once and buy a box of 30-30 to shoot on the range. They came back into the shop to ask what caliber the Marlin 336 was that they were shooting. They also had the 30-30 fired cases with them that they had just purchased. The cases were now straight without a bottle neck and were a little fatter. The Marlin was a 35 Remington. One of the guys laughed and told his buddy, "I told you something wasn't right with all that smoke coming out of that gun." I guess the extractor had just enough grip on the rim to allow the cartridge to fire.