View Full Version : Chopped K98k '43 Sauer bring-back
A friend a couple states over inherited some firearms he is selling including a '43 Sauer K98k chopped stock w/ mismatched bolt, unknown bore condition. I've heard of GIs cutting them down to fit in a duffel, but this one is actually whittled down at the sling keeper band. I can just see some guy whacking it down with a bayonet as the truck home is arriving. Considering shipping and transfer on this end, what's a good price?
randy langford
04-24-2014, 08:23
Without photos it is going to be hard to value. Any chance you could post photos?
Don't have capability to post photos, but he sent me some. The (unpeened) proofs and other markings are consistent ( according to "Backbone of the Wermacht") with a '43 Sauer w mismatched bolt , mismatched Stock, floor plate, with original finish.
It is not only badly mis-mstched but also has been crudely sportered, probably for hunting. If you are a collector the rifle is worth 2-300 dollars plus ship & xfer and really not worth buying, regardless of condition. A so-called restoration would still be a m/m. If you are just a 'shooter' value is about the same. Allot of GI bringbacks did have m/m but matched to themselves bolts. They were removed on captured weapons and thrown in separate piles, this is where GI's almost always picked them up.
Thank you. Pretty much what I thought, the only thing that makes this attractive is that he was going to send it my way for a really good deal (less than $100 plus ship & transfer). Perhaps I'll point him to another friend looking for a starter rifle. If it is a GI pick up mismatch as you described, there could be headspace issues.
cplnorton
04-25-2014, 08:15
A stock and bands to restore it would be like $300. Then it would still only be a shooter as it's a mismatch. And it would only be worth $400 or $500 after. It's not worth it unless you want it as a good hunting rifle.
cplnorton
04-25-2014, 08:17
jebhh, I sent you a private message. It's at the top of the main forum page under notifications.
Head space issues are most un-likely. They were made to very close tolerances and headspace has a very large 'safe' range. Always have it checked, however.
Thank you. Pretty much what I thought, the only thing that makes this attractive is that he was going to send it my way for a really good deal (less than $100 plus ship & transfer). Perhaps I'll point him to another friend looking for a starter rifle. If it is a GI pick up mismatch as you described, there could be headspace issues.
$100.00, The bolt and receiver is worth that, then throw in a trigger guard etc., the fact the numbers do not match is not/would not be a factor. Then there is 'head space' as in could be a factor. I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06, that is .127" difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face and the case from the shoulder to the case head, my case did not stretch, the shoulder did not move, the shoulder was flattened and became part of the case body.
Instead of stretching my cases got shorter. One more time, the shoulder did not move, it was erased/flattened, the shoulder I formed was a new shoulder.
F. Guffey
Hatcher did the same, years ago with a 1917. Kept cutting chamber deeper until there was no shoulder left on case. How ever there is another headspace issue which can be really bad. That is the distance from bolt face to barrel face. If that is too wide you can get a head separtaion and much gas and presure let loose in the action, magazine, etc. Headspace is measured from bolt face to a point on the shoulder, a too deep chamber shoulder is not dangerous but really hard on brass if you reload!
Hatcher did the same, years ago with a 1917. Kept cutting chamber deeper until there was no shoulder left on case. How ever there is another headspace issue which can be really bad. That is the distance from bolt face to barrel face. If that is too wide you can get a head separation and much gas and pressure let loose in the action, magazine, etc. Headspace is measured from bolt face to a point on the shoulder, a too deep chamber shoulder is not dangerous but really hard on brass if you reload!
How ever there is another headspace issue which can be really bad. That is the distance from bolt face to barrel face. If that is too wide you can get a head separation and much gas and pressure let loose in the action,
Everything is not a head space, all gages are not head space gages. The distance from the bolt face to the face of the barrel on a Mauser is case head protrusion, then there is unsupported case head. With few exceptions the case head protrusion from a Mauser barrel is .110" +/- a few.
In the perfect world and the smith/reloader had a go-gage case head protrusion on a 98 type Mauser would be .115". The extra .005" would be caused by head clearance as in the difference between the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.
"Hatcher said" has always been the beginning of a very boring story. The advancing of the shoulder (story) started with an 03, and I always ask: "Where are the 03 experts", finally someone read the book and understood there was a test 1, test 2 and test 3, the 1917 was test 3. Hatcher had nothing to gain by advancing the shoulder until the shoulder no longer existed. In a real world effort he had nothing to gain by advancing the shoulder beyond .080" I have always referred to the chamber as the 30/06 Hatcher +.080" Wildcat . Hatcher became a wildcatter/fire former by simply pulling the trigger.
When I pull the trigger I eject once fired cases, had Hatcher scribed the case body/shoulder juncture of his 30/06 cases he would have know the case shoulder was erased and became part of the case body, he would have know part of the neck became part of the shoulder, he would also have the case shortened from the end of the neck to the case head but lengthen from the shoulder to the case head. Had he measured the length of the case before firing from the shoulder to the case head and again after firing he would have know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I form cases to fit from the shoulder of the case to the case head before firing. I am not the fan of short cases that do not cover the chamber. When forming cases for wildcats. 35 Whelen and 338-06 my cases shorten as much as .045". I form cases from 280 Remington cases, the 280 Remington is .051" longer from the case head to the shoulder and longer from the mouth of the case to the case head than the 30/06.
F. Guffey
If that is too wide you can get a head separation and much gas and pressure let loose in the action,
you can get a head separation
No, I can not get case head separation, I could say anyone but me but that would be wrong also. The word or group of words that describe that event is not case head separation, you should describe the event as a catastrophic event.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/catastrophic
Catastrophic event: Without an excessive gap caused by too much case head protrusion, you could create a catastrophic event with an excessive load and or a bullet that was too large in diameter etc.. The heavy load could crush the case head.
Nice to know, the R-P 30/06 case head is .260" thick on all my R-P cases. All of my military surplus 30/06 case heads measure .200" thick. Back to case head protrusion and case head support, the extra .060" case head thickness means crushing the case head is unlikely to cause case head separation/ catastrophic failure. It does not mean digging the case out of the chamber is going to be easy.
F. Guffey
Oh, good grief! Only making the point that too deep a chamber at the shoulder is not dangerous---while too much space between bolt and barrel face can be!
Oh, good grief!
Allot of GI bring backs did have m/m but matched to themselves bolts. They were removed on captured weapons and thrown in separate piles, this is where GI's almost always picked them up.
There were collectors that never got credit for matching rifles. They knew the bolts were removed when shipped to save room. They set up a net work of collectors that collected rifle serial numbers with mismatched bolts. They got the distributor involved with all the gun shops in the New York area. They had a high success rate.
F. Guffey
There is such an exchange set up on gun boards Mauser site, for recently imported VZ-24. So far one match after couple years. But VZ's have a much higher varity and different type serial systems then K98k's.
I have many matching rifles---what kind of credit should I expect? hehe!
Bolts were removed by US military so weapons would be unoperable in some cases. Also many German troops throw bolts away before surrender.
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