Trapdoor Ammunition 45-70 Questions

[1mark]

I purchased a box lot at an auction. In a bag are 15 rounds of 45-70. The cases are head stamped F 11 89. The cases are not brass but look to be aluminum or tin. Are these standard cases or something else?

[Tom Trevor]

They are arsenal rounds with brass cases tin plated. The plating is to resist the action of black powder with the zinc in the cartridge case in long term storage. Cartridge brass is usually 70% copper and 30% zinc. Earlier arsenal cases were Bloomfield guilding metal 95% copper and 5% zinc. Being that soft some extraction problems were encountered. Hope this helps.

[raymeketa]

F 11 89 means Frankford Arsenal November 1889. If the bullet is seated long, they would be rifle cartridges (45-70-500). If the bullet is seated deep in the case, they would be Carbine cartridges (45-55-405).

[mannparks]

How bout some photos please.
Charles

[1mark]

The length measure 2.445. I scratches the case and I do not see any copper.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/LM7/45-70Ammunition-A_zps2305416a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/LM7/45-70Ammunition-B_zps2d656d3e.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/LM7/45-70Ammunition-C_zps40186691.jpg

[mannparks]

Very nice, and the bullets are set quite deep.

[raymeketa]

Your cartridges are 45-55-405 Carbine. Far right.

No matter how hard you scratch, you won't find any copper under the tin plating. The cases are brass.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2mhwqpy.jpg

[1mark]

Woops. Yes brass.

[Dick Hosmer]

The government also purchased very large quantities of ammunition from commercial sources, which have untinned brass cases, the majority of which will be found with the manufacturer's normal HS.

[Irish Rob]

This got me to thinking. About 35 years ago I picked up some cartridges while deer hunting on Fort Huachuca, AZ. And yep, one is a tinned Frankford Arsenal April 1890, the other is unmarked brass. Thanks for jogging my memory.

Fort Huachuca in the late 1880's was first home to HQ, B, D, and I Troops of the 4th Cavalry Regiment. The first black regiment to arrive at Huachuca was the 24th Infantry which sent companies there in 1892. During the next year, the entire regiment would come together at the Fort. They remained here until 1896, a year that saw some excitement for the troops who thought that the Indian Wars were ended. It was in that year that Colonel John Mosby Bacon took Companies C and H, of the 24th Infantry out of Fort Huachuca to run down Yaqui Indians who had been raiding around Harshaw and Nogales. The search for these Mexico-based Indians proved inconclusive. Companies A and H of the 25th Infantry regiment took up residence in Huachuca Canyon in 1898, after returning from fighting in Cuba, and A Company remained there until the end of April 1899. Troops of the 9th Cavalry (Buffalo Soldiers) joined the 25th Infantry at Fort Huachuca in 1898 and rotated its units in and out of the post until 1900.

[Dick Hosmer]

The other one, unless it is clearly the same case, might be a .43 Spanish??

[Irish Rob]

It's a different cartridge. Unfortunately ruptured so I can't measure case length etc. rim is dimensionally similar to the 45-70 at 0.638 in. Case body ahead of rim is 0.526 in. Also picked up what I thought was another 45-70, but when I cleaned of the dirt was marked Winchester 45-60. Cool. As far as I know that would have come from a M1876 Centenial.

[Irish Rob]

Measures close enough to 43 Spanish, and it makes sense for the location (post Spanish American War). 43 Spanish: Rim Dia 0.635 and Base Dia 0.516

[Dick Hosmer]

My guess was based on general appearance of head - which is not like any .45-70 with which I am familiar.