No4Mk1 bolt heads

[budmant]

Recently picked up a 1944 Savage that closes on a NoGo gauge..waiting on my Field. It has a "0" head on it now, any hints as to where to get a 1,2 & 3? Numrich is sold out of 2 & 3.:icon_scratch:

[Parashooter]

Several generations of American shooters have been convinced by bad information that something mysterious and scary called "headspace" should be checked and re-checked on almost any surplus rifle, especially Lee-Enfields. The truth is less interesting but still worth knowing.

Moderate excess headspace, even a bit beyond normal limits, isn't the terrible danger we've heard so much about. It's not a good thing for consistent ignition or long case life (although handloaders who neck-size or adjust F.L. dies carefully can control this) - but it's not a disaster waiting to happen.

New cartridge cases can normally stretch a lot before breaking. Even with a minimum rim .054" thick and maximum "field" headspace of .074", the resultant .020" end-play is well within the elastic limits of new brass and it's very unlikely a new case will separate even if the headspace is somewhat more than the field maximum (which is pretty rare).

OK, but if one does separate I'm in deep trouble, right? Not really. It seems the short "cup" left behind the break is pretty good at keeping most of the gas where it belongs.

". . . With good strong actions and moderate pressure loads, and especially if the shooting glasses are worn, this trouble is not particularly dangerous, but is annoying and inconvenient. Very little, if any, gas escapes to the rear, because the back end of the cartridge, which remains in the chamber, acts as a seal. In fact, it is just such short brass cups that the Germans have for years used as the breech seals in their heavy artillery . . . In my own experimental firing I encountered at least a couple of hundred such separations, and every one of my several thousand students had to experience and correct this situation several times and I never saw enough gas escape to hurt any one. . . Our riflemen are used to measuring the headspace of their rifles by thousandths, and are prone to become very much alarmed if the headspace gauges two or three thousandths of an inch more than the normal maximum. This is a good safe attitude to take, but it is something like measuring cordwood with a micrometer." - Hatcher's Notebook

Unless you're consistently getting broken cases when firing new ammo or brass, there's not much reason to be worried about headspace in a sturdy old Lee-Enfield.

[kcw]

What Parashooter says about the 303 I've to be true. My only suggestion would be that if you intend to reload for any 303 Brit is that you segregate your brass to each rifle and then neck size only.

[Alan De Enfield]

You MAY need a new bolt head - but wait and see when you have the correct 0.074" gauge (not a SAMMI 0.070 gauge) - Hopefully you have ordered the correct one ?

If you do need a new bolt head you MAY not need a number 1, or 2, or 3

To save me typing it all out again have a read of the 'attached' link.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?318777-No4-Bolt-Head-Survey-and-Instructions

[budster]

Very educational...Thanks for posting.

[SMOKEY]

Check Liberty Tree Collectors. They have quite a few No.4 items. I have used them several times with good response

[tmark]

Interesting post. Glad to have visited this site.

[Guamsst]

It's an Enfield, shoot it, see if it is accurate. If so, don't worry about it. If not, maybe move up to a 1.....maybe... First, check that the wood fits tight and the bands are all tight as well.

I had a friend who was obsessed with headspace. None of my Enfields have EVER had trouble with broken, cracked or otherwise deformed cases and I have had some that were nearly worn out and had bad headspacing. Actually I can't even recall the last time I had an Enfield with a broken part from normal use. I stocked up on spare parts years ago and I'm selling them off as they are generally useless. I'll keep a firing pin, extractor and a couple of springs......maybe.

The Enfield is the AK of bolt actions. It does not have the tightest tolerances. It's not always the most accurate. But, throw some mud, sand, gravel and snow it's way and it keeps on truckin.

[budmant]

Okay, so my Field gauge comes today and of course the barrel fails. Lousy weather here in NJ this afternoon, so I will try to shoot it over the weekend (for Guamsst). Found that Sarco has #1 heads so will go pick one of them up on Saturday.

[Parashooter]

Okay, so my Field gauge comes today and of course the barrel fails. . .

How do you know the barrel is failing? Could be the bolt or receiver, eh?

Is it an authentic U.K. spec .074" "field" gauge or one of those bogus U.S. .070" gauges designed to drum up business for the parts merchants?

[Alan De Enfield]

In fact - I'd hazard a guess that it is NOT the barrel failing.
The headspace 'wear' points on an Enfield are the locking lugs on the bolt/action.

The locking lugs are hardened (very thinly) and are virtually always the point of failure. It is important that the bolt locking lugs 'fit evenly' against the action lugs and the first few firings/recoil actually 'sets' the lugs - this is why you cannot just stick a 'new' (or second hand) bolt into an 'old' receiver. A new bolt needs FITTING in the proper sense of the term.

Notes from Peter laidler :

First things first. Bolts could only be fitted at Field and Base workshops because they were the only ones that had a 'GAUGE, Inspectors, Bolt'. This is a brand new, calibrated bolt. Still in white metal and marked as such. If my memory serves me right, the slot in the long/top locking lug is machined right through to identify it. So that's the reason if you have ever seen one. This bolt is bare. Clean the locking lug surfaces of the rifle and put a smear of 'engineers blue' marking dye onto the corresponding locking surfaces of the inspectors bolt. Insert this bolt RIGHT FORWARD, rotate it closed, then draw it backwards and forwards a couple of times to mark the mating locking surfaces of the rifle. Push it forwards, unlock and remove.
Examine the locking surfaces of the rifle. The blue witness marks should be evident. This ensures that whatever wear that has taken place on the rifle locking surfaces has taken place equally. If its not, then I'm afraid that the rifle is unserviceable.
BUT, that's not quite the end of the story because you won't have this 'Gauge, Inspectors, bolt' but it's only right that I tell you. Now for a little secret. If you have ever bought a rifle that has a sploge of red paint on the left side, adjacent to the internal left side locking lug, then you now know that the rifle was condemned for 'worn locking lugs'.
If you are going to fit a second hand or new bolt, then do the same thing. If the dye pattern is one sided, then stone the high surface of the bolt until BOTH locking lugs bear evenly against the locking surfaces of the corresponding surfaces in the body. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT to stone the rifle to get a bolt to fit (you can only get to the right hand surface in any case ....). The rifle body is induction hardened at these points to a depth of .004 - .006" .........................................

[Stephan]

I got a #3 bolt-head a few years back from a Enfield parts seller in Calgary Canada...just cannot remember the gentleman's name??

I had to get a different bolt-head for my No.4 Mk.I...it had like a #0 head by measurement(marked as a #1 size)...however there was enough slack in the head-space it wouldn't fire a cartridge!! The #3 size bolt-head fixed that issue and gave good enough headspace

[budmant]

Okay...I found a #1 bolt head & tried it out. It passed both the no go & field gauges. Now to get the extractor spring & extractor installed.

[Alan De Enfield]

Okay...I found a #1 bolt head & tried it out. It passed both the no go & field gauges. Now to get the extractor spring & extractor installed.

Please make sure it 'clocks' correctly - if it doesnt ,after you've fired a few rounds you'll be back to where you were.
Clocking is just as (if not more so) important than headspace.

[budmant]

Please explain what you mean by "clocks". Thank you.

[Alan De Enfield]

"Clock" ensure the bolt head aligns with the bolt body. Any 'overturn' is detrimental but if you get up to 20 degrees then you start to have problems.
If you click on the link I posted in post #4 you will see what I mean.

[John Sukey]

Okay...I found a #1 bolt head & tried it out. It passed both the no go & field gauges. Now to get the extractor spring & extractor installed.

Installing the spring. Get some dental floss. make a double loop through the spring,feed it through the bolt head and pull the spring into position. Have installed a couple of springs in that way. Or you could spend money and get the ordnance tool

[JB White]

Use waxed floss...or the frayed line will be tougher to completely remove. (voice of experience ;) )

[budmant]

How about braided fishing line such as Fireline?

[JB White]

How about braided fishing line such as Fireline?

I haven't heard but I'm thinking......
So long as it has both the ability to flatten without snapping, and is able to roll around a screwdriver shank (as a T-handle) without too much slippage. I reckon it would be worth a try if you have some on hand. Then you could let us know!!! :)

[budmant]

Could not find my Fireline, but had some Gorilla Braid handy...worked like a charm, so now we know;)

[JB White]

What #test did you use?

Up until now the only alternative use I had for braided fishing line was in my blue chalk reel. The 20# test makes a nice fine snapline to follow when installing cabinets and trim.

[budmant]

10#

[Guamsst]

Sarco has Size1 heads in stock as of today. $24.
I also have one on ebay that is a bit worn and may go for less or more than that.

[budmant]

The one I picked up was from Sarco..saw yours on Ebay, looks nice.

[Guamsst]

The one I picked up was from Sarco..saw yours on Ebay, looks nice.

I certainly would go with Sarco too. Theirs has a fixed price, mine may go cheaper or a Frenchman and a Lithuanian may drive it to an insane price.

[JB White]

Just out of curiosity, what do you suppose that Frog and Lugen might do if it were a new, unused size 3 bolthead?

[Alan De Enfield]

Just out of curiosity, what do you suppose that Frog and Lugen might do if it were a new, unused size 3 bolthead?

The size 3 bolt heads I've sold on ebay have all made over $150 and thats selling to crazy Americans who have a fixation about headspace. ( I only have a couple left so may have to save those)

For some reason Enfields do not have headspace problems on this side of the 'pond' - maybe its the weather ?

[JB White]

$150+ USD????

Holy moley!!! Had I known they'd be fetching more return than gold I'd have bought the whole lot instead of one for the spares box. That was a while back when I wanted one of each size just in case. Size 3's were just a few dollars more than a new-in-grease 0.
In the past there were a couple instances of me swapping out boltheads to a smaller one because someone HAD to have tight headspace. They made it too tight.

Here in the US they (gun writers) used to talk about headspacing and OAL to where the bullet was just slightly back from engaging the rifling. That might be great in a target rifle or high end hunting rifle, but it doesn't do much good in a generously chambered military arm or low end sporter. Couple that to having tighter SAAMI specs and gauges and half the population here thought the sky was falling if something was off just 0.001 from what last months article said.

[Guamsst]

Who knows what would happen with a 3. I'd probably get $5. It is a weird market. I sold a 1918dated (only the upper half) US sling a few weeks ago. The bottom half was obviously later (WW2 era). I got about $130 out of it to a Lovely Frenchman. When they spend $130 they are not a "Frog"....LOL

I think a big part of the problem in the US is that there are 3 myths floating around. 1.) Without tight headspace you will have poor accuracy 2.) All guns are built with tight headspace 3.)"excessive" headspace is dangerous!!!

I'm not sure how bad your headspace has to be to blow the rifle up in your face but I am thinking it would have to be in the range of ludicrous bad. I had a friend in South Dakota who was obsessed with "Fixing" the headspace on every Enfield he could get his hands on. He said they "Always" had poor headspace. I said it was a battle rifle not a target rifle and I just shot mine, as found, with no issues. I never had bad headspace cause accuracy problems on one with good wood and a strong bore.

[Bill Wylde]

Good Lord........I've got plastic bags full of No 4 and C No 7 boltheads. I must have a look.

[Alan De Enfield]

I'm not sure how bad your headspace has to be to blow the rifle up in your face but I am thinking it would have to be in the range of ludicrous bad. .

This was the subject of a discussion on another forum - It does appear that the 'headspace' issue is only on the left hand side of the pond.

One of the UK's main dealers in Enfield rifles actually did some studies - he gradualy reduced (or increased - depending on which way you look at it) the headspace on a NO4 until at 90 thou (0.090") he gave up with no change in accuracy, or signs of cartridge failure.

Ammunition was mil-spec - not the thin walled US made SAMMI specification stuff.

As a wartime measure the headspace was increased to 0.078" and there was talk of going to 0.084", remember that they had no considerations regarding reloading.

[Guamsst]

Good Lord........I've got plastic bags full of No 4 and C No 7 boltheads. I must have a look.

Sell them slow. You'd be surprised how quickly you can ruin the market.