M1912 Holster / Belt / Pouch help

[rmlachance]

I have a 3 digit navy (shipped March 9, 1912) that I'd like to put a holster rig together for but I need some guidance one what would have been issued with the pistol.

Holster - there appears to be 4 variants per Meadows 1894-1920 (page 485). A US and USMC marked leather with a swivel and a US and USMC without swivel (dismounted)... I assume the US no swivel would be correct for a Navy pistol.

Magazine Pocket - 2 early variants here. A leather single snap rimless eagle or a Mills double snap rimless eagle. Not sure when Mills started making them. Earliest I've seen (own) is a 1914.

Belt - I assume that there was no specific belt made for the 1911 so I guess any prior variant of Mills would be acceptable..

Any one care to comment or post pictures.

Thanks guys.

Ray

[Johnny P]

I don't believe my Meadows even has that many pages. I believe you would be better off pursuing a nice Model 1912 holster. As to the magazine pocket, Mills started manufacturing them in 1912.

http://i62.tinypic.com/nfky2b.jpg

[rmlachance]

Thanks Johnny... That's the exact picture I want to take with my two exposed base magazines :-)

I should have been more specific.. I meant Meadows US Military Auto Pistols 1894-1920, not US Military Holsters and Pistol Cartridge Boxes....

Do you have a picture of the correct holster you could post?

Ray

[stan4]

I have a 3 digit navy (shipped March 9, 1912) that I'd like to put a holster rig together for but I need some guidance one what would have been issued with the pistol.

Holster - there appears to be 4 variants per Meadows 1894-1920 (page 485). A US and USMC marked leather with a swivel and a US and USMC without swivel (dismounted)... I assume the US no swivel would be correct for a Navy pistol.

Magazine Pocket - 2 early variants here. A leather single snap rimless eagle or a Mills double snap rimless eagle. Not sure when Mills started making them. Earliest I've seen (own) is a 1914.

Belt - I assume that there was no specific belt made for the 1911 so I guess any prior variant of Mills would be acceptable..

Any one care to comment or post pictures.

Thanks guys.

Ray

I have seen only one picture (aboard ship) of a holstered 1911 before WW1 (I think the picture was dated 1914) and it was not very clear (to ID the holster). Does anyone have any old pictures of Navy personnel wearing a holstered 1911?

Ray, please post pictures of your Navy?!

[Johnny P]

Meadows does not show (in holster book) a Navy marked holster for the Model 1911 other than one he believes is private purchase rather than military issue.

[Charlie Flick]

Any one care to comment or post pictures.

Ray:

Sailors armed with the M1911 pistol, prior to the adoption of the Model of 1916 holster, used the Model of 1912 holster. The holster was carried on a M1912 pistol belt in conjunction with the double magazine pouch as shown by Johnny above.

This photo of Navy signalmen, party of the landing force at Vera Cruz in 1914, illustrates the use of the Model of 1912 holster during this time frame.

I hope that additional information helps you.

Regards,
Charlie

http://www.thortrains.com/online/navyvera8.jpg

[JBinIll]

They are all wearing P1912 pistol belts, 1st pattern 1910 haversacks,
canteens w/ *RIMLESS* eagle snap covers, and sidearms.


http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=747796

[JBinIll]

This picture is circa 1926-27.Part of a Landing Party from the USS Mississippi.Still using the the M1912 pattern holster.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=561396

[rmlachance]

Thanks for the input guys... Looks like I need to find an M1912 with the swivel and a Mills double mag pocket (both dated 1912).

Ray

[stan4]

Thanks for the input guys... Looks like I need to find an M1912 with the swivel and a Mills double mag pocket (both dated 1912).

Ray


Ray

I remember another person asking around with very similar questions about 15 years ago. They worked about 4 years putting a rig together and I am not sure what they have is correct (for 1912 Navy gear) (maybe there are several combinations that would be correct). The problem they had was finding nice 1912 dated items that all matched and then matched the condition of the pistol. I am not sure they figured out the pistol belt. There are a lot more 1913 and 1914 dated items than 1912. The 1912 dated M1912 holster had (has) a dark steel hanger, the 1913 dated and on had brass hangers (I think). (Maybe the early 1913 dated ones had steel also.) There is 1911 dated M1912 holsters (the one I saw had a steel hanger).

For you collectors, was there a 1912 dated 1911 pistol belt? When did they start to make the 1911 belt? Looking at Johnny's 1912 dated pouch, it is green (so are 1913 and 1914 "rimless" pouches). Latter pouches were/are light tan (khaki). The 1918 pistol belts and pouches matched in color (khaki). Did the pistol belts made in 1912, or when they started to make them, match the green magazine pouches?? Brass hardware and green web? How would you identify an early pistol belt (other than it having a date)? Thanks for all the prior information and I hope some one knows about the early pistol belts!

Here is another Navy picture (dated 1918). The US is nice and clear. I can not find the 1914 picture I have. Note: No leg straps on any of the Navy pictured M1912 holsters. I wonder if they ordered them that way?

[JBinIll]

Here's a posting on belts.A belt dated 1912 would have different characteristics than later belts-

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/41927-early-m1912-pistol-belt/

If you peruse the reference section on this forum you will most likely find pictures and information of help.There are some advanced web collectors here.

[rmlachance]

Thanks again for the input JBin….. the link/forum is very helpful… I'm in no hurry and I have 1911's from other early years so i can't go wrong buying the best example belts/pockets and holsters I find for each year as they come up.

I'll post pictures of the 3 digit Navy (all correct with a pretty worn finish) sometime soon.

Best Regards,

Ray

[rmlachance]

In regard to the Magazine Pocket, does anyone have a leather variant with a single snap and rimless eagle snap (issued by Rock Island)… what years where these made?

[stan4]

Here's a posting on belts.A belt dated 1912 would have different characteristics than later belts-

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/41927-early-m1912-pistol-belt/

If you peruse the reference section on this forum you will most likely find pictures and information of help.There are some advanced web collectors here.

JBin, Thank you for the link to the belt info (with the link in that link on color). Almost fits the definition of: "If you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question".

[stan4]

In regard to the Magazine Pocket, does anyone have a leather variant with a single snap and rimless eagle snap (issued by Rock Island)… what years where these made?

Ray,

Thank you for starting this thread. I knew I didn't know, but---I had no idea there was so much between 1911 and 1917. I will watch for the pictures of your navy.

I have held only one 1912 dated cloth pouch (it was in rough shape and not for sale). Johnny's is the only other one I have seen (but, not been hunting for one [yet]). I have seen several 1913 and 1914 rimless cloth pouches. I have seen one 1913 dated single snap leather pouch (several after 1918, and one double snap, rimed, leather that does not have any markings [private sale?]
I am not sure I can get a picture of the stamp on the 1913 leather, but I will try to describe it. On the back, with the flap/opening to the right, it is stamped between the bottom two rivets (those two rivets would be the two on the right back with the pouch held upright---so, the stamp is side ways with the pouch upright). It reads:
ROCK ISLAND
ARSENAL
1913.
H.E.K.
(The bottom three lines in the stamp are centered below ROCK ISLAND)
You may already know this, but---the 1913 dated leather pouch will not go on a cloth pistol belt (only on a leather belt?). (I think all the leather mag. pouches were meant to be used on leather belts??) All the other leather mag. pouches I can put my hands on look like they will go on the cloth belt.

[Scott Gahimer]

Here is another 1912 mag pocket and early rig that's not very common.
http://i58.tinypic.com/ax1zpj.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/33jml9e.jpg