Jungle carbine prices

[p246]

A local collector has reached out to me as he's getting up there and his kids have no interest. His collection is huge and centers around WW1 and WW2. He is starting with his is WW2 Lee Enfields. Mark IV from 41 to 45 and Mark V jungle carbines. All in good shape with good bores. Some original some rebuilt. He wants 400.00 for any in the lot. I know this is pretty general question but 400.00 seems a little high for a mark IV but resonable for a mark V. Generally what are you guys seeing price wise on average. I only have SMLE's. Would like to add 1 mark IV and one mark V.

[Guamsst]

I have trouble moving No4 rifles above $250 but they will go for $300 if nice. US Property or Longbranch I can move for about $350-$375 if VERY nice. Many dealers around here want $400-$700 for the same gun (sometimes literally, they buy one of mine and double it). Keep in mind that I like to move my guns, not keep them forever while grinning about what a big number I can draw on the tag.

I see No5 Jungle Carbines for $350-$500. Most are mismatched or fake. A good matching numbers one should be about $500 but many will put $700 on it and keep it for a year or two.

Condition is everything. $400 is probably a decent ballpark figure. If you put them all out at $400 I would almost guarantee you will sell the No5 rifles quickly and be stuck with the No4 rifles.

I only can quote what I see in Texas. Could be $1,000 guns or $100 guns in Kansas. Go to some gunshows, gunshops and pawn shops in your area to get a better idea of the surplus rifle market.

[p246]

Thanks Guamsst. From what I've seen around here a number IV would go for 300 and a number V 500 . So 800 for both would be fair I think. This guy is a novel on both wars and we discussed the fake issues with number V's. He said he got took on a 1873 carbine he bought 40 years ago (cut down rifle). He said after that he was more patient and did a lot better after educating himself. The point is he only has two number V's because it took him 40 years to find 2 that weren't fake. You should see the amount of uniforms he has.

[Guamsst]

Sounds like a similar market to Texas.

I have had more than a few people show me "Real" No5 carbines they bought only to see No4Mk1 stamped into the receiver. That's as easy to identify as it gets. I love enfields and arisakas because they normally have the model number stamped in plain sight.

[JB White]

Just a tip. Try to use Arabic numerals for the model and Roman for the mark. Otherwise it gets confusing and hard to follow.

For instance, a No5 vs a MkV:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/JBWhite/No5/5rtside.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JBWhite/media/No5/5rtside.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/JBWhite/MkV/P6190001.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JBWhite/media/MkV/P6190001.jpg.html)

Huge difference in price too!

[p246]

Well I pick it up Saturday. He decided he wanted 500.00. I whipped out tape measure to see how far band was from receiver after seeing No 5 electropenciled on it. He laughed and said he'd be concerned about fakes to. He then pointed out everything that was right about it. Most I knew some I did not.

Its a 1945 model. Bore is good. Stock dark no cracks but alot of oil in there. Black finish flaking off some but its acceptable.. He also has the correct bayonet for it he suppose to get me a price.

I've never seen a collection like this. 50 years of serious collecting. Racks of rifles over 200. I counted 10 garands 9 carbines, 6 trapdoors. 20 1903's and A3's 3 Reisings, 20 Lee Enfield big bores and 10 22 trainers, 2 Reminton Mosin Nagants with flaming bomb. 1 loanly but pristine 1894 Krag. Then various french japanese Italian and German rifles..Oh saw 5 Ross rifles. He had an entire peg board wall covered with bayonets and racks and racks of complete uniforms and shelves of helmets. I thought I died and went to heaven.

[p246]

JB thanks for the heads up. This rifle looks very similar condition wise to the one in your picture. Can't tell about finish comparison though.

[Johan412th]

Saw a lithgow mkIV carbine for 499 at cabelas here in oregon this week. It was cabelas... So I wouldn't hold it by much. There was another carbine for 500 at a local consignment shop. Seems the going price.

[John Sukey]

If that's what a No5 rifle is going form what are R.I.C. "carbines" worth???

[JB White]

I've seen average RIC's priced from $800 to $1,200 and nicer ones priced "never to sell". :)



Saw a lithgow mkIV carbine for 499 at cabelas here in oregon this week. It was cabelas... So I wouldn't hold it by much. There was another carbine for 500 at a local consignment shop. Seems the going price.

What is a Lithgow MkIV carbine?

[p246]

I've seen average RIC's priced from $800 to $1,200 and nicer ones priced "never to sell". :)




What is a Lithgow MkIV carbine?

My understanding is its a No 4 lithgow rifle cut down and made into a jungle gun. I assuming he meant No 4 instead of mark 4....made that same kind of mistake recently:-)

[JB White]

But Lithgow never made a No4 rifle ;)

[p246]

Ah yes your right on that. What I get for ass u Ming.

[Johan412th]

Sorry it was a lithgow no.5 Jungle Carbine from what I could tell.

[JB White]

Sorry it was a lithgow no.5 Jungle Carbine from what I could tell.

Lithgow produced an extremely limited number of prototype carbines labeled as a No6 in different variations. They weren't general issue and are very rare. Not anything you would ever find at Cabela's or any other store. I doubt you would ever see one for sale in the USA outside a private auction.

There are SMLE's which have been cut down and modified into carbines for the commercial market though. If the ones you saw were marked Lithgow then it's 99.9% certain it was one of those. There are also cut and modified 2A1's which are being sold as Australian carbines. Australian they are not! Lately that same outfit has been chopping, bobbing, refinishing, and using cheap repro No5-type flash hiders on other types of surplus arms. Those you might find on a gun shop rack today.

The No5 has a ceratin cool factor about it and there are probably as many fakes as there are original No5's out there. So, be very careful and don't let them fool you with sales hype.

[Johan412th]

Thanks JB. It was In really pristine shape.. That threw me off.

[Guamsst]

I bought a Santa Fe "No5" in Tulsa. I was surprised. A.)It was almost correct. B.) they used some original No5 parts. C.) it had the correct rear sight!

I knew better and it was clearly marked Santa Fe and No4 on the receiver flat. Only thing "wrong" from a couple of feet away was the mag had been cut down.

The other fantasy carbines (No1Mk3 fakes) are often priced higher than real No5 carbines. I guess the cool factor is good at parting fools from their money.

[p246]

Since I've been bitten by the enfield bug I'm finding the number of fakes higher than I thought they'd be... old man has had this one over 30 years he believes....were they faking them that long ago to.

[JB White]

They were making boatloads of WW2 surplus marketable in the 1950's. It was Golden State Arms who coined the terms Jungle Rifle and Jungle Carbine for their No5 look-alikes.

[p246]

Well my No 5 mark 1( M47C) is sitting in the gun room. Brought a No 4 mark 1 home with it. I'll try and post pics tomorrow night.He also has the bayonet for the number 5...Told him I'd be back for that tonight.

[JB White]

Good on you and I think you'll be happy with what you have. Hopefully you'll get a good price on that No5 bayonet. Tip: if the ricasso is marked with RFI only and that marking is centered, take a pass as it's a low cost repro. If it's marked RFI with a two digit year date, snag it!
Not that RFI was the only maker, mind you. Just that so many of the fakes are marked "RFI".

BTW, I was able to follow what you bought at a glance...now that you've got your numbers and marks in a row :)

[Guamsst]

I'm not sure the RFI bayonets are "fakes". They seem to be low quality fast production on the old tooling to me. Some of the others are much worse. Either way, they are modern production unless dated.

I have one in poor condition marked sterling inside the blood groove. I have to fit some grips to it and then it will be good to go.

Not sure if we covered it but No5 bayonets go for well over $200.

[p246]

Yes on the numbers. What got me started on enfields is my dad gave me his 1943 Lithgow No 1 Mark 3.. The front end got sported but no barrel cutting. I'm going to buy the parts to put it back right.

On the bayonet he has three but the other collecter bought one two days ago. He told me could have my pick of those two. I'll look them over. This is the only thing he's been reasonable on (100.00). He bought them in the 70,s. Hmm if their legit maybe I should buy em both....got to brush up on that now.

[Guamsst]

At $100 in decent shape and not simply marked RFI or a comic book looking stamping get them both. Then ebay the other to pay for them both.

[p246]

Hers what I found
Wilkinson marked WSC S294
Radcliffe marked N187
Viners marked VNS Ñ79
Elkington marked M78
ROF marked circle P with year of manufacturer date
Sterling marked STERLING in triangle

Found some mention of BSA manufactur but no marking info.

We will find out tonight.

[p246]

Came home with two wilkison WSC S294 Bayonets.. will get pics done tonight and u guys can let me know if I was right and they are legit.

[JB White]

If they're marked WSC with S294 then they are legit (unless there's a new crop of forgery) Given the timeframe you stated they're real and he gave you a very fair price.

The circle P is Poole, in case you wish to note that in your records.

Can you tell which is fake? ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/JBWhite/No5/002.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JBWhite/media/No5/002.jpg.html)

[p246]

Top one....no hole in side at attachment point...School me if I'm wrong. Both mine has Broad Arrow and bend test? Mark along with one other at the bottom of the blade on that side. The wood on the best one is almost as good as those. Not nearly as good as on the lesser of the two. Blades are in good shape. When he bought them long ago they were waxed wrapped in Cosmo. He believes the were rearsenaled, packed, stored , then eventually surplused out.

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_134328.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_134328.jpg.html)

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_134341.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_134341.jpg.html)

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_134316.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_134316.jpg.html)

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_134249.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_134249.jpg.html)

[p246]

There the bayonets....close ups are of better knife. Markings on second one are same but left side is not stamped as deep. Carbine pics tonight when I have more time. Hopefully this beginning enfield collector passes muster.

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_193114.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_193114.jpg.html)

Right side overall

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192416.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192416.jpg.html)

Left side overall view

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192741.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192741.jpg.html)

Marks on barrel. Told some are proofing stamps when gun was muster out and sold

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192331.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192331.jpg.html)
Electro pencil

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192629.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192629.jpg.html)
Matching bolt see Number BE3210

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192503.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192503.jpg.html)

BNP stamp on front of receiver

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192317.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192317.jpg.html)

M47C stamp partially struck over by ENGLAND stamp. M very clear and top of 47C visible

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192706.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192706.jpg.html)

First Enfield I've owned with correct magazine.

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_193025.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_193025.jpg.html)

800 meter sight

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_192948.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_192948.jpg.html)

Stock serial number matches

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_193127.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_193127.jpg.html)

The right side of the stock has a grease pencil mark. A big circled X.

[p246]

I think its a winner. I took hand guard off and barrel has correct cuts to lighten rifle....Thoughts

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140601_200855.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140601_200855.jpg.html)

Here is the no 5 mark 1 with the no 4 mark 1 I bought with it. All numbers matching so its the second Enfield I now own with the correct magazine.

[Guamsst]

It's either an original No5 or someone spent way too much time and money faking it with correct parts. Nice buys.

[p246]

Thanks been looking at a lot of other ones. There are some terrible fakes some good fakes and are a few that look legit. The ones built on none No 4's are pretty common fakes I see.