Sharps and Spencer Question

[w10085]

I have some questions for Mr. Hosmer. Your excellent book on .50 caliber US Rifles and Carbines did not cover two carbines that I have. I have an 1860 Spencer Carbine converted to .50-56 Spencer and a Stabler Cutoff added that my father bought in about 1968. I also an 1863 Sharps Carbine converted to .50-70 I recently purchased.

I am interested in knowing what typical US Military use was for these. I assume they were reasonably standard Cavalry issue, along with the 1870 trapdoor carbine, until the 1873 carbine was issued. From things I have read that you wrote, .50-70 trapdoors remained in secondary service for a long time since the Government was buying commercial ammunition in this caliber into the 1880’s. Who used these .50 caliber carbines after they were replaced in front line service? Can you speculate on how long these remained in secondary service until they were surplused?

Thanks for all the information you have provided in the past. I have thoroughly enjoyed your book but I hope you know I will go broke because of it!! There are just too many interesting things to collect!!!!

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for the kind words. Believe me, you are not the only one in danger of going broke! I HAD to draw the line somewhere, and I drew it at "produced (but not simply overhauled) at SA". This choice produced some nuances of degree, but did lead to some restraint, leaving both the examples you cite outside the door. There are excellent, if a bit expensive, books which will give you the best answer to your questions (Roy Marcot on Spencers, and the late Frank Sellers on Sharps).

You are correct - with one exception - in your assumption of general usage by the cavalry - mostly in the West - and they even had a few Starrs in service. The mixed designs became a pain, and the 1870 trials were convened to select ONE breech system for the entire Army. The "Allin design" (NOT yet the "Model 1870") "won" (the deck was rigged) and the rest is history. The Spencers and Sharps were issued in the thousands, but the few hundred 1870 Carbines (the exception noted above) were never general issue.

The .50 caliber trapdoor rifles were retained in limited service after 1874/75, by packers, teamsters, guides, scouts, rear echelon troops, etc., but I doubt that the Spencers or Sharps arms, etc., saw much use once the trapdoor was available. The knock on the Spencer was range and power - fine in CW melees, but puny at long range in the West (let's not discuss LBH!) while the Sharps had supply/repair issues, and they really did not want to perpetuate the use of multiple designs.

Hope that helps.

[w10085]

Thank you very much. The history of use for these rifles is very interesting and some times not much is written on what happens to a design once it is not in front line service.

[11mm]

Dick- Did state and territorial militias continue the use of the Spencer and Sharps rifles? I believe some used rolling blocks (NY). I believe from reading about (and visiting the site of) the Big Hole battle in Montana that the territorial forces and volunteers had 50/70's while the regulars had 45/70's. I realize that state and territorial records keeping may have been variable with regard to arms used by the militias, or at least different in format from the records kept by the federal government.

[Dick Hosmer]

I honestly do not know, but I wouldn't be the least surprised.

I have read militia TOE data from the Span-Am war period, and they had an incredible amount of cast-offs on hand. New York of course did use the rolling block in .50-70 for a long time.