Cast bullets in my sporter

[psteinmayer]

I mounted a long eye relief scope on my sporter to use in cast bullet matches using the Kraghaus mount. Today I hit the range and got it sighted in at 100 yards. Shooting 185 grain spitzers that Madsenshooter cast for me, I put 25 on the paper with great results. The lower shots were while sighting it in, and I pulled a couple... but I have at least 14 shots in a 2 inch group around the bull! Woohoo!

I have included a picture of my sporter, a close up of the mounted scope, and my target.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/Target012800x719_zps218c135e.jpg

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/KraghausMount05800x315_zpsc822d264.jpg

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/KraghausMount04800x376_zps31708a06.jpg

[madsenshooter]

Which load was this?

[psteinmayer]

This was 19.0 grains of AA 5744 and a CCI standard primer. Cases were Winchester, and the bullet was seated just past the last lube land. No jump as the bullet was just touching the rifling.

[madsenshooter]

Should be good for around 1600fps. The guys on castboolits thought that the bullet worked best around 1900fps. I had some good results with its 203gr fat nosed brother a couple days ago up around 2100fps. Are these bullets from the first batch or are you on the latest batch I sent?

[psteinmayer]

These are from the first batch. I'm going to load up 100 rounds from the new batch. Half the cases will be Remington, and half will be Winchester, because that's what I have available right now. I still have around 15 of the first batch left, and I'll load those up with the remaining cases I have. If I can swing it, I'm going to try and shoot in the June Washtenaw Cast Bullet match on the 19th. I think I should do awesome!

[madsenshooter]

I'm planning on the 19th too, Ed says they haven't had enough people to make an official match yet this year. Must've lost some of the older supporters, one in particular that was the national champion a couple times. You still get to shoot, but if there's not a minimum number of people, the scores don't get sent to the CBA. That would only matter to me if I happened to set a record, which isn't likely to happen.

Oops, I'm planning on the July match, not June.

[Smokechaser]

Is the sporter stock attached anywhere else to the barrel/action other than the two trigger guard screws?

[psteinmayer]

Nope, just the trigger guard screws... so it's totally floating. The stock is pretty beefy, so I'm not really concerned with it cracking, but I hate the stock anyway. the only thing preventing me from replacing it with a better stock is because I can't afford a new one!

Unfortunately Bob, I can't do the July CB match at Washtenaw because I have my 90 day post surgery appointment for that day, and I can't change that... so it's June, or wait until August! Besides, we're shooting in the National Matches together at Camp Perry on July 19th and 20th LOL!

[Smokechaser]

Ok. The sporter stock I have is very beefy also, so I'm thinking about just using it for now until I find a replacement. Can you post another picture sometime of the left side of yours. Thanks.

[13Echo]

The Krag is secured at the rear of the action by the trigger guard screws with no front action screw and is secured at the front by the barrel band. Unless someone added a front action screw or front band or screw your rifle isn't well secured in the stock.

[madsenshooter]

Unfortunately Bob, I can't do the July CB match at Washtenaw because I have my 90 day post surgery appointment for that day, and I can't change that... so it's June, or wait until August! Besides, we're shooting in the National Matches together at Camp Perry on July 19th and 20th LOL!

The July CB match is the 17th, I'm going to it as it is "sorta" on the way to Camp Perry. I'll have to find something to do on the 18th to occupy my time.

[psteinmayer]

Well, unless I'm back to work by then, we could hit a local range as a warm-up. There's a range out in Chelsea at a place called Ralph's Gun Shop. It's a small family owned shop in the middle of nowhere... but he has a 200 yard range (really, it's just a gully that he turned into a range). Otherwise, you could hit Cabelas and get some of those Magnum primers you need. I'd love to shoot in the match on the 17th, but as I said, I have my Dr. appointment... although it's at 4:30 PM. Do you think we'll be done by 2:00 PM? I could probably do it then...

Smokechaser, here are a couple pictures: The left side as it was before I removed the Redfield 102K rear sight, and the stock itself, so you can see how it beds. The work done fitting the stock is actually pretty good, but there is a crack in the area where the receiver side plate is because the wood is quite thin there. It's not in an area that affects the strength of the stock though.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/189830-40KragCarbine004A_zps41d037d3.jpg

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/1898Sporter008A_zps52e8697b.jpg

[psteinmayer]

I shot in a Cast Bullet Match yesterday at Washtenaw Sportsman's Club in Michigan with my cutdown 1898 sporter. As you can see from the pictures, I have a 7x32 scout scope mounted with a Kraghaus barrel mount. I was shooting 185 grain spitzers that Bob (Madsenshooter) cast for me. Not too shabby! I scored a 179 6X at 100 yards and a 178 1X at 200 yards (both out of a possible 200). The targets that they gave me to use were 25 yard pistol targets and the black (9 ring) were only 5 1/2 inches across. At 200 yards, that is an incredibly small target! The few pulls I had were more me than the gun... This ole coot is not as steady as he used to be, LOL

My setup
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/100_9638800x600_zps28838598.jpg

Me shooting
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/100_9658800x600_zpsd19a8794.jpg

One of my 100 yard targets
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/100_9652800x600_zpsefecc255.jpg

One of my 200 yard targets
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/100_9662800x600_zps5cdb64fb.jpg

[p246]

I'd say you got it tuned in pretty good.. You know what mold Bob is using.

[madsenshooter]

Night Owl Enterprises 311365 spitzer. Alloy was a 23BHN lead based babbitt. NOE shows a few in stock, and they have another spitzer, or semi-spitzer, the 311332 that looks promising, and perhaps a bit easier to work with when cast of softer alloys. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=30&sort=2a&page=1

[p246]

That's madenshooter. I'm using a few Lee molds with flat noses but what to try a spitzer mold

[madsenshooter]

If you're looking for high velocity, skip the Squibb bullet. Lyman's 311413, Belding and Mull 311168 and other brands had their version too. Something about the balance of that bullet, it won't stabilize above 1600fps no matter what tricks you may try. That bullet has likely made more people give up on cast spitzers than any other.

[p246]

Yeah I don't push the flat nose stuff real fast but wanted to find a spitzer to push over 2000 with a gas check. I'll look at Lymans 311413. Thanks for bringing that point up.

[psteinmayer]

To be honest, I'm loading my rounds with 19 grains of Accurate 5744 and a CCI standard 200 primer. My OAL is 3.14. I'm only pushing around 1600 FPS in these!

Here's a picture of one of my loads, along with a bullet.
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p511/Paul_Steinmayer/Cast%20Bullet%20Match/100_9668800x600_zpsfea92e05.jpg

[madsenshooter]

However, the bullet retains a fair degree of accuracy up to at least 2150fps, about as fast as you're safely going to get one going out of a Krag. You need to understand, these aren't cast of WW or waste alloy. I wouldn't attempt over 2000fps with anything less than linotype. I am using a copper toughened alloy in my post about duplicating the 1907 Palma round, I had to keep the percentage of Pb high to get the weight I needed. Otherwise, I'd be using the same alloy I cast Paul's bullets of, and they'd weigh around 190gr. Paul's just starting, he hasn't had time to work up the ladder and find the accuracy hotspot.

[p246]

Well I've been casting for pistol and 45-70 a while. 30-06 but only flat nose out of 50% WW and 50% lead. Gas checked. They are ran in a M1917 which chronos at 1850 or one off two03A3,s, same loads run just shy of 1800 in those. These are used strickly for brush hunting white tail and thump real good. However I've always wanted to work up a spitzer load. I don't have any Linotype but have used some of the pre mixed hard tack from Midway to get some BHN up to the 25 mark per my Lee Hardness tester. Now I need a mold and some time for ladder testing. Oh out of 5744 so need more of that. If Paul's just getting started he's way ahead of the curve. I've seen many a man spinning their wheels a long time trying to get a recipe to work. Wrong mix wrong size, however once you find the right recipe its amazing how accurate a cast projectile can be out of modern rifles. I see you posting on castboolits. Great website where I've learned most of what I know. Keep up the good work Paul. Look forward to seeing that target with cast sniper written in corner.

[Smokechaser]

psteinmayer, thanks for the extra pictures. I'm preparing my stock for bedding right now.
Also, I have a bunch of cast 160gr flat nose/gas check bullets that I used to load for a 30-30. I know they are a little light for the Krag, but will they work ok for some plinking and/or armadillos? If so, any load suggestions? I have plenty 4895 & 4831. Thanks.

[madsenshooter]

4895 will work good, you can reduce it for cast bullets no problem. I save the slow burners like 4831 for higher velocity loads. Start around 26.5gr or so of 4895 and work up. Some use a tuft of dacron on top of the powder to keep it back against the primer, I haven't worked with that much. Seat the bullet out as near the rifling as you can, with that weight there won't be much of it in the neck.

[Smokechaser]

Thanks. I figured I would need to seat bullets out quite a bit to get them close to the riflings. I've never used case fillers like Dacron either, I wonder if a piece of cotton ball would work, or some dryer lint(I have lots of that!).

[Parashooter]

An advantage of Dacron fluff is that it melts/burns to very low volume at fairly low temperature. Put a match to pinch of it and you'll see. This could be important in bottlenecked cases where less volatile fillers can compress into something of an obstruction as they funnel into the neck. Personally, I avoid fillers of any kind in such cases, reserving them for low-density loads in cartridges with little or no bottleneck.

Anyone experimenting with reduced loads should keep aware that dense, progressive powders like 4895 don't really burn well at low pressure. Below are QuickLOAD estimates for 4895 and Blue Dot in a range of loads running from ~1500 to ~2000 fps. Note how the "Prop.Burnt" percentage for 4895 goes up as charge, pressure, and velocity increase - while the faster, double-base Blue Dot burns completely over the entire range.

Cartridge : .30-40 Krag
Bullet : .308, 202, LYM LRN GC 311299
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.089 inch or 78.46 mm
Barrel Length : 30.0 inch or 762.0 mm
Powder : IMR 4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1 gr. of nominal charge.

Step Fill% Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt%

-20.0 53 24.00 1531 1067 12024 3196 82.2
-16.7 55 25.00 1591 1152 13133 3402 84.5
-13.3 57 26.00 1650 1240 14320 3604 86.6
-10.0 59 27.00 1710 1331 15591 3801 88.6
-06.7 62 28.00 1769 1425 16949 3993 90.4
-03.3 64 29.00 1829 1522 18401 4178 92.1
+00.0 66 30.00 1887 1621 19952 4355 93.6
+03.3 68 31.00 1945 1723 21608 4523 95.0
+06.7 70 32.00 2003 1826 23376 4682 96.2

Powder : Alliant BLUE DOT

Step Fill% Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt%

-22.2 37 14.00 1546 1088 19018 2082 100.0
-16.7 39 15.00 1610 1179 21469 2209 100.0
-11.1 42 16.00 1671 1271 24061 2334 100.0
-05.6 44 17.00 1730 1363 26797 2458 100.0
+00.0 47 18.00 1788 1455 29677 2581 100.0
+05.6 50 19.00 1844 1547 32705 2703 100.0
+11.1 52 20.00 1898 1640 35883 2824 100.0
+16.7 55 21.00 1951 1733 39214 2944 100.0
+22.2 58 22.00 2003 1826 42704 3062 100.0

Unburned powder isn't cost-effective and it's also messy at times - but there's no denying that such inefficient loads sometimes group very well.

It's also worth knowing that it's not raw pressure but velocity in the barrel that's a common source of cast-bullet leading and accuracy problems. For example, a 39000 psi load of Red Dot generating some 1600 fps can be an easy, accurate load with ordinary cast bullets, while the same pressure with 4895, at about 2400 fps, requires a lot of care even with super-hard cast bullets.

[Smokechaser]

Thanks for the case filler explanation Parashooter, I've never had a reason to use any. I figured it could cause a problem with bottle necked cases.

[madsenshooter]

Yea, appreciate it Parashooter. As you know BD is one of my favorite powders. I have ringed the chamber on a Krag, in the neck, right where the base of the bullet was, using Puf-Lon. I've been doing a few experiments with dacron, but I'm very leery.