View Full Version : Enfield .308 conversion?
Johan412th
06-08-2014, 03:24
So I know that ishapore manufactured 2a's that shoot .308, but has anyone converted there .303's to 308's? I say this because I want a .308 enfield, but I want as many British parts as possible. Is this possible and has anyone done this?
The Brits converted fairly large numbers of No4 rifles to 7.62mm NATO as emergency war reserve. 7.62mm No 4T sniper of one flavor or another served as front lined British sniper rifles until the mid - late 1980s. These 7.62mm rifles of any variety are rare birds over here. The conversion requires among other things, a new barrel, front sight, trigger guard, bolt head, extractor and magazine (I know I left stuff out but others will correct me.) I also understand that these rifles can have problems with ejection if you don't have the correct magazine. This conversion is not a job for the untrained even if you can get the parts.
Alan De Enfield
06-09-2014, 01:42
Ishapore (nor anyone else as far as I am aware) made Enfields in "Win 308".
A number of Countries / factories and private gunsmiths have manufactured or modified Enfields to 7.62 NATO - In Britain alone the MOD used L42 and L39 rifles in 7.62, The police used the Enforcer in 7.62. I Canada there was a big programme of 7.62 modifications, and of course Ishapore,
There are probably 100,000's of 7.62 Enfields.
Do not be fooled that 308 & 7.62 are the same. They are not. The cartridge looks pretty much the same but the case thicknesses are diferent and the rifle chambers are not the same. For example there is a 13 thou (0.013") difference in headspace, and you cannot just use 308 headpaces to gauge your 7.62.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t219/Alan_de_Enfield/308Vs762-2.jpg
Johan412th
06-09-2014, 05:18
Thanks for the advice, gents. I currently want a 7.62 enfield that is true British steel, but an l42 is out of my price range. How hard are parts to find? I will have a gunsmith assemble said parts to a no.4 when I find one. How hard is it to find 7.62 NATO no. 4 that was already converted?
"...In Canada there was a big programme of 7.62 modifications..." Only by The DCRA(shooting only, not like the NRA) on No. 4's and single shot target rifles only. Never done by the CF.
Ishapores were never conversions either. Made from scratch in the mid 60s.
There used to be .308 barrels for No. 4's floating around 35 years ago. No mags though. Did a few in the shop I worked in then. Only because we had the proper action wrench and the barrel vise I made. Do not hire a smithy who doesn't have the proper action wrench. He'll twist the receiver.
Anyway, you'll need a barrel and mag if you want it to be more than a single shot. No idea where you find a barrel. Ishapore mags will not fit a No. 4, but can be made to by grinding off the bottom locking lug. Still be the wrong follower though.
Alan De Enfield
06-09-2014, 01:19
........... How hard is it to find 7.62 NATO no. 4 that was already converted?
I've had a No4 in 7.62 NATO Complete, action, barrel, magazine (not Enfield mag) and sportered wood for sale for several years at my local gun-shop. Priced at GBP £100 (about US$160) There are so many about no one wants them.
Johan412th
06-09-2014, 01:37
I've had a No4 in 7.62 NATO Complete, action, barrel, magazine (not Enfield mag) and sportered wood for sale for several years at my local gun-shop. Priced at GBP £100 (about US$160) There are so many about no one wants them.
And this is in the uk? Incredible. I haven't seen any lately in the US. Still looking though. It pains me every shot I take with my .303 Greek ammo.
Years ago I bought a one off 7.62 conversion by Cogswell & Harrison, imported and sold by Brian Dick. It used some modified standard parts like the mag, charger guide and extractor. I have owned it for 12 years and aside from launching bullets sidewise, as I reported here, it is fine. A proper recrown fixed that. Brian has an import license and he may be able to get one for you if the UK is so full of them. I did contact C&H to see if they had records on this rifle but no luck.
Johan412th
06-09-2014, 06:09
Years ago I bought a one off 7.62 conversion by Cogswell & Harrison, imported and sold by Brian Dick. It used some modified standard parts like the mag, charger guide and extractor. I have owned it for 12 years and aside from launching bullets sidewise, as I reported here, it is fine. A proper recrown fixed that. Brian has an import license and he may be able to get one for you if the UK is so full of them. I did contact C&H to see if they had records on this rifle but no luck.
Who is this Brian dick?
M1Garandy
06-09-2014, 07:09
Who is this Brian dick?
He owns www.bdlltd.com
He is a good guy to deal with.
Johan412th
06-09-2014, 08:30
Found his sight and sent him an email. This could be what I'm looking for. Thanks a bunch m1.
Hal O'Peridol
06-10-2014, 01:41
Ishapore mags will not fit a No. 4, but can be made to by grinding off the bottom locking lug. Still be the wrong follower though.
Ishy 2A1 mags will fit a No4 action just fine with no grinding, and will feed and eject rounds just as well. I have used a couple on 7.62 barreled No4s that were waiting on L42 style mags.
Johan412th
06-10-2014, 07:46
Well unfortunately, I contacted Brian dick, and he informed me he no longer has any 7.62 enfields. Back to the drawing board. Nice guy, though.
Alan De Enfield
06-10-2014, 11:15
There are half-a-dozen here
http://www.gunbroker.com/Firearms/BI.aspx?Keywords=enfield+7.62
Johan412th
06-10-2014, 01:46
Thanks Alan. Seems to be 400$ For the going rate on an ishapore. It's no No.4 mk1, but it'll get the job done.
Thanks for the advice, gents. I currently want a 7.62 enfield that is true British steel, but an l42 is out of my price range. How hard are parts to find? I will have a gunsmith assemble said parts to a no.4 when I find one. How hard is it to find 7.62 NATO no. 4 that was already converted?
Look up Bill Wylde . Bill is a member and posts here .Bill has forgotten more about monkeywrenching No4's in .303 & 7.62x51mm NATO than just about anyone I know and I am or was a TAMO officer running a central small arms repair depot for six months .
Nice and very helpful guy and may be able to set you up with what you need !
JR
Johan412th
06-11-2014, 07:24
Thanks. I sent him a message, hopefully he can help.
And this is in the uk? Incredible. I haven't seen any lately in the US. Still looking though. It pains me every shot I take with my .303 Greek ammo.
Consider reloading. You can make your loads just right for you and save some money if you shop components.
Consider reloading. You can make your loads just right for you and save some money if you shop components.
....if you can find .310"-.312" projectiles. I've had very little luck on that front. I have an order that's been pending at Midway so long that my credit card expired and I had to send them the updated info. Components are so hard to find for me, anyhow, that I hoard my reloads almost like my factory or milsurp.
....if you can find .310"-.312" projectiles. I've had very little luck on that front. I have an order that's been pending at Midway so long that my credit card expired and I had to send them the updated info. Components are so hard to find for me, anyhow, that I hoard my reloads almost like my factory or milsurp.
Same issue but I'm shooting cast gas checked out of some 30 Cal's so I bought a. 312 mold for my enfields. I,m going to Beagle that mold to. 314 and run gas checks. I'll have to play with the load to find the sweet spot but that's half the fun.
....if you can find .310"-.312" projectiles. I've had very little luck on that front. I have an order that's been pending at Midway so long that my credit card expired and I had to send them the updated info. Components are so hard to find for me, anyhow, that I hoard my reloads almost like my factory or milsurp.
Every so ofter I make a trip to Sierra inSedalia and buy factory seconds. No mail order on these, you have to go in person and limit is 100 pounds of bullets.
Johan412th
06-12-2014, 01:10
See, gents, that's the bigger issue. You can only reload so long. It is seriously getting depressing trying to find not standard calibre ammo or components these days.
Bill Wylde
06-12-2014, 04:11
This thread made me think of something. Hammer marks on the threaded portion of 7.62 conversion action bodies. I seem to remember having and seeing several conversions with Longbranch 7.62 barrels that were probably indexed in this manner. I think I may still have one such conversion on a Longbranch action that belonged to our long-time Illinois State Rifle Association Secretary, George Bjornstad. Would this have been common practice?
See, gents, that's the bigger issue. You can only reload so long. It is seriously getting depressing trying to find not standard calibre ammo or components these days.
John there is a very nice Ishy 2A1 RFI 1967 on gunbroker right now.
Johan412th
06-13-2014, 01:16
Is the ishapore the only real affordable enfield in 7.62 NATO? I have a feeling even if I manage to get a barrel, it's not going to be cheap...
JB White
06-13-2014, 04:56
Is the ishapore the only real affordable enfield in 7.62 NATO? I have a feeling even if I manage to get a barrel, it's not going to be cheap...
Yes, but don't expect the same function and accuracy as you would from the others. The 2A/2A1 rifle was a production line, general issue rifle made with a different set of parameters in mind.
I look at it like all other Enfields they were battle rifles not target rifles. Made to go bang in terrible condition and hold minute of man.
Johan412th
06-13-2014, 10:30
I look at it like all other Enfields they were battle rifles not target rifles. Made to go bang in terrible condition and hold minute of man.
Ha! That they were... But, battle rifle beats modern rifle any day. I'll take functioning surplus over commercial grade any day. Tried and true.
Bill Wylde
06-13-2014, 01:19
In the attached photo the hammer marks that I've seen often on the conversions is evident. Nothing that bothered me particularly, but I was curious if this was common practice. Quite evident is that the barrel probably didn't index and the hammer elongated the metal enough for the indexing to take place.
I did find a couple takeoff LB conversion barrels, but know there is a new one somewhere. Also found a CMK4 barrel marked '58. Would that be a 6 groover? I forgot to look for a marking.............
Johan412th
06-13-2014, 02:40
Is there anything that would fit a standard no.4 mk1 rifle and stock?
JB White
06-14-2014, 10:23
Is there anything that would fit a standard no.4 mk1 rifle and stock?
Another No4 MkI? ;)
Nothing on the budget end that I'm aware of. All else are sniper and target rifles built up to exacting (and pricey) specs.
In the attached photo the hammer marks that I've seen often on the conversions is evident. Nothing that bothered me particularly, but I was curious if this was common practice. Quite evident is that the barrel probably didn't index and the hammer elongated the metal enough for the indexing to take place.
I did find a couple takeoff LB conversion barrels, but know there is a new one somewhere. Also found a CMK4 barrel marked '58. Would that be a 6 groover? I forgot to look for a marking.............
Bill, I wasn't aware of those hammer marks but thanks for showing them to us. I know a bit more now that you said it's common enough that you've seen it before. As far as indexing, couldn't that be done with a shim prior to setting headspace?
Bill Wylde
06-14-2014, 08:43
J.B.,
Everything No 4 was expendable in the day. I've had many tell me they used the timber to start fires. Shims can be difficult to make, but a little hammer work can settle things quickly. I've listened to the stories by the hour and paid to carry off beautiful new LB furniture by the armload. My buddies up there could not believe I was paying for such. Now they want it back!:icon_lol:
JB White
06-15-2014, 12:25
I too have heard how the various plants used stocks for firewood, barrels for a fence, and Morris tubes for rebar in concrete machinery pads. Back then it was surplus junk being put to good use!
John Sukey
06-15-2014, 01:44
Have several Morris tubes they missed. LOL
Johan412th
06-15-2014, 10:58
I too have heard how the various plants used stocks for firewood, barrels for a fence, and Morris tubes for rebar in concrete machinery pads. Back then it was surplus junk being put to good use!
Hearing this makes me sad. No other way to say it.
In the attached photo the hammer marks that I've seen often on the conversions is evident. Nothing that bothered me particularly, but I was curious if this was common practice. Quite evident is that the barrel probably didn't index and the hammer elongated the metal enough for the indexing to take place.
I did find a couple takeoff LB conversion barrels, but know there is a new one somewhere. Also found a CMK4 barrel marked '58. Would that be a 6 groover? I forgot to look for a marking.............
CMk4 1958 WILL be a 6 groove .Nice oxford grey , fine; grained parkerized finish with the number 6 stamped on the RIGHT hand bayonet lug !
Cheers,
JR
Bill Wylde
06-30-2014, 04:08
I knew the marking was on the lug, JR, but didn't look before I wrote that. Found it a day or two later and sho-nuf. The next move will be to clean the grease out of it. Not sure yet if it is new.
Bill Wylde
07-01-2014, 04:49
Cleaned the grease out of that old barrel and it looks excellent. I have just the place for it. A double stamped, never issued, rifle that belonged to Major Colin Brown. A friend of his brought it out of LB and cut the barrel down to a sporter length. The action is stamped with his initials, service area, and service number if I'm not mistaken. I need to ask him. He's 90 now and still an active shooter. Also the Senior Life Governor of the DCRA.
A new barrel, new wood, and a few other parts and that old treasure will have a new life!
keith.herrington
07-10-2014, 02:55
So I know that ishapore manufactured 2a's that shoot .308, but has anyone converted there .303's to 308's? I say this because I want a .308 enfield, but I want as many British parts as possible. Is this possible and has anyone done this?
If you want one that looks like a No. 4 Mk 2, then the Aussy gun made a few years ago was a good example. But if you're looking for cutting edge accuracy, then an L39A1 is just the thing. Not cheap, but about half of what a comparable L42A1 is going for.
http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss127/cprher/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1001_zps6cf1ae2e.jpg (http://s568.photobucket.com/user/cprher/media/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1001_zps6cf1ae2e.jpg.html)
http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss127/cprher/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1005_zpsc8189a9e.jpg (http://s568.photobucket.com/user/cprher/media/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1005_zpsc8189a9e.jpg.html)
http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss127/cprher/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1004_zps219059e0.jpg (http://s568.photobucket.com/user/cprher/media/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1004_zps219059e0.jpg.html)
This is what the gun does at 200 yards. Three 5-shot groups with Lake City (top), an M118A1 load, and a Serbian version of M118 (bottom).
http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss127/cprher/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1targetat200yards_zpsa83ef50b.jpg (http://s568.photobucket.com/user/cprher/media/Target%20Rifles/L39A1/L39A1targetat200yards_zpsa83ef50b.jpg.html)
One of my very favorite rifles.
Alan De Enfield
07-11-2014, 01:16
But if you're looking for cutting edge accuracy, then an L39A1 is just the thing. Not cheap, but about half of what a comparable L42A1 is going for.
.
In the UK the L39 are about £600-£1000, whilst the L42 is around £7500+
John Sukey
07-11-2014, 03:52
Bought my L42A1, L39A1 and L59A1 while they were still on the boat!:icon_wink:
Johan412th
07-15-2014, 02:31
What are these l39 rifles? Custom 7.62s?
Alan De Enfield
07-16-2014, 10:23
The L39 is the military (Army and Air Force) target rifles, they are manufactured as 7.62 on No4 actions.
The military's sniper rifle was the No4T (in 303) and served until the early 70's. This was re-issued after being modified by ROF Enfield with the addition of a 7.62 barrel and magazine, and the No32 Scope re-calibrated into metres.
This new rifle was designated the L42 and served well in the Falklands war and for some time afterwards.
The L59 is a 'deactivated' training rifle - basically a No4 with the action cut-thru (not completely) to make it inoperable.
Johan412th
07-19-2014, 01:51
So that being said... Are l39s available in the US? Apparently the uk varies signicantly on rifle supply.
Alan De Enfield
07-20-2014, 02:06
So that being said... Are l39s available in the US? Apparently the uk varies signicantly on rifle supply.
Most of our Enfields ended up in the USA, yes the L39s are available in the US, but for some unexplainable reason they are considerably more expensive than in the UK
(UK price $900-$1500)
This one is about $1200
http://www.deactivated-guns.co.uk/live-firearms-and-shotguns/live-enfield-l39-7-62mm-military-target-rifle/prod_1059.html
JB White
07-20-2014, 04:19
.....but for some unexplainable reason they are considerably more expensive than in the UK
Most likely because they are in private collections and nobody is willing to cut one loose. When one surfaces there will be cut-throat competition if the word reaches the right ears.
keith.herrington
07-31-2014, 07:17
In the UK the L39 are about £600-£1000, whilst the L42 is around £7500+
But then I'm not in the UK and that low a price for an L39 doesn't apply over here in the USA where they are decidedly more rare, in fact largely unknown. Your price for an L42 is pretty much spot on if you are talking about a pristine example with case and all accessories.
Keith
John Sukey
07-31-2014, 11:26
Strictly they are not conversions. They were built that way from the start
Alan De Enfield
08-01-2014, 09:24
But then I'm not in the UK and that low a price for an L39 doesn't apply over here in the USA where they are decidedly more rare, in fact largely unknown. Your price for an L42 is pretty much spot on if you are talking about a pristine example with case and all accessories.
Keith
I simply pointed out the price differential on the L39 because virtually every other rifle / model tends to be around 50% more expensive in the UK (depending on the $ to £ exchange rate - late 2008 the $ was 1.36 to the £, in 2007 it was very weak at over $2 to the $ and this month has been around the $1.70 to the £)
Johan412th
08-02-2014, 01:56
I simply pointed out the price differential on the L39 because virtually every other rifle / model tends to be around 50% more expensive in the UK (depending on the $ to £ exchange rate - late 2008 the $ was 1.36 to the £, in 2007 it was very weak at over $2 to the $ and this month has been around the $1.70 to the £)
Yeah, our money is going to hell...
FlightRN
08-05-2014, 08:51
Good Day,
There was recently a very nice Envoy (serial number is 459) offered on Gunbroker. I assumed it was marked "ENVOY 7.62 m/m",manufacture date and serial number. It was only bid up to $2100 and did not meet the reserve. Of the 7.62 chambered Enfield variations, these are amongst the rarest seen offered in the US. This one was proper with the correct mag, finish, sights, etc. I'm surprised it didn't receive more attention.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431825816
Regards,
Michael
Johan412th
08-06-2014, 02:35
Do you know if it was relisted? Or what the reserve was?
Bill Wylde
08-06-2014, 04:54
I wonder why the important markings ahead of the PH5C were not shown. I would have to see more photos.
FlightRN
08-06-2014, 06:09
Good Day,
The seller indicated that the rifle would not be relisted. I don't have a problem with reserves per se, but it REALLY cranks me when a seller thinks the reserve price is classified:protest:. Such a position befuddles me and turns me off from bidding. If I can afford it- I bid. If not-I don't. Sounds simple doesn't it.... off my soap box!
It would have been nice had the auction shown the actual markings but I feel 75%+ that the rifle was correct:headbang:. The clean lines of the receiver (please see the attached pictures), finish (Suncorite) and stock work "looks" correct. Of course, I'd reserve final judgment based on a closer inspection:icon_wink:
Best Always,
Michael
Bill Wylde
08-06-2014, 09:01
These photos are great. One a 1970 Palma (E329) and the other an L39 (A958). Not trying to beat you to death, but 75% isn't a good place to be when you are talking that kind of money. You can really connect with one of these babies when you shoot them at 900M with bad ammunition! They really shine when that happens, but those dayz are history. Now they just look beautiful! Thank you for your service, Michael.
https://www.joesalter.com/category/products/British-Lee-Enfield-No-4-MK-1-Converted-to-308-Win
JB White
08-10-2014, 11:41
$700 for a rifle which is fairly accurate at 50 yards? Joe is asking a lot for that high mileage range rifle.
Joe asks a lot for everything IMO.LOL If I could get those kind of prices I'd sell out.
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