View Full Version : No 3 (P14) 22 trainer
Okay went back over and took a good look at the ERA P14 trainer 22. He said its a No 3 P14. Its very nice and in WWI unmolested condition. British broad arrow. Volley sights and original sights still on it. Looks like a nice P14 303 until you look close. Sleeved barrel, modified bolt and receiver. He said I could take pics and post them. I'll get them tonight and post them Sunday.
I thought it had a functional magazine but maybe I was mistaken. Picked up a very nice Long Branch No 4 mark 1* while there. These things are addicting.
John Sukey
06-13-2014, 04:31
I hope you bought that .22 conversion. If not, I would be happy to buy it.
I hope you bought that .22 conversion. If not, I would be happy to buy it.
John I have not decided yet mainly because neither of us can find a recent price of a similar gun. We consulted two local collectors and their price estimate was not even close. The pictures are following so those that have never saw this conversion can see one. Also can some of you trainer collectors give your opinion on a fair value. If I pass I think I can get him to let me list it here in the for sal section. He wants it to go to a collector.
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004607.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004607.jpg.html)
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004529.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004529.jpg.html)
Original rear sight
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004341.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004341.jpg.html)
Barrel sleeve insert from muzzle end
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004647.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004647.jpg.html)
Original safety
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004935.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004935.jpg.html)
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004304.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004304.jpg.html)
British broad arrow acceptance mark along with double broad arrow out of service mark
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004426.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004426.jpg.html)
Barrel sleeve protruding into receiver. Receiver is milled out in this area almost to gas vent
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004540.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004540.jpg.html)
Bolt release with rear volley sight in down position
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004615.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004615.jpg.html)
Front sight
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004750.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004750.jpg.html)
Bolt serial number matches receiver serial number
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004947.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004947.jpg.html)
Shot from back of receiver with bolt in
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004315.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004315.jpg.html)
Front volley sight
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004518.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004518.jpg.html)
Bolt modified for 22 rimfire with off set firing pin
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004554.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004554.jpg.html)
Left side of stock
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004638.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004638.jpg.html)
Receiver with ERA serial number matching to bolt
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004809.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004809.jpg.html)
Different shot of barrel sleeve entering receiver
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_005034.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_005034.jpg.html)
Rear volley sight in up position
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004238.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004238.jpg.html)
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/IMG_20140614_004249.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/IMG_20140614_004249.jpg.html)
1940 dated sling
So it looks like an unmolested No 3 P 14 to me with a 1940 Brit sling. I'll be interested to see what you guys think and what its worth. The rifling is very good and I suspect the gun was not shot much.
JB White
06-14-2014, 10:05
Nice, and an early Eddystone 'fat boy' stock to boot. From what I can see in the pics all the markings are standard .303B so I have my doubts about it being a British military trainer conversion. Definitely not any type of Bubba work! Perhaps a training rifle for one of the UK supplied countries, or a first class gunsmithing job for someone who wanted one.
My civilain British rimfire conversions have either Greener, AG Parker, or Parker-Hale markings added. Are there any markings you might have missed?
Not that I can find and I've been over it with a fine tooth comb. I found one website that said the civilian conversions done in the 20.s all had micromiter rear sights added, and the presence of the standard sight was an indication of a military build during WW1. It also said the civilian versions usually had the volley sights deleted. Does this pan out with your civilian version.
JB White
06-14-2014, 05:35
The P14 volley sights were also deleted as part of the Weedon Repair Standard among other things. So missing those is no real clue.
Micrometer rear sights and/or tunnel front sights were a pricey option even back in the day. Not every conversion had them although tang sights were often used. Original military sights were not uncommon either on the cut down Long Lee range rifles.
Many of the 20's rimfire club rifles were done on Martini actions.
Do you happen to have a link to wherever you read that? That sounds like way too much of a blanket statement to make.
Im sure I can find that page when I get home. Im working an off duty job now for more gun money.��. In that post he had pics of a post war target version. Ill have to re read it maybe the context was about his gun and I took it as a blanket statement....ill find it and add the link.
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.3.html
JB here is one link with pics and some info. I'm still looking for the other one.
Inside the above link is a bunch of other links to follow. I'm trying to find another one. In it the author said if the end of the barrel was engraved then it was postwar. If not it was wartime. It is that link that also talks about wartime sights versus post war target sights. If I can find it I'll link it.
JB White
06-15-2014, 12:49
I copied this from that site regarding the P'14 rimfire conversions. It's from the chronology list of .22 trainers.
Rifle, No.3, (P'14) in .22-inch R.F.................A small number of these rifles were converted to .22RF by WW. Greener and possibly A.G. Parker. They were never adopted.
The other info in the columns are marked as n/a or unavailable.
If yours is one of those it's a desireable specimen. I wouldn't know how to set a price, but I would negotiate one to get it!
John Sukey
06-15-2014, 01:42
Just curious on how you would fit a tang sight on a P14 unless it was one near the buttplate and you shot feet first lying down (which was used at Bisley)
Just curious on how you would fit a tang sight on a P14 unless it was one near the buttplate and you shot feet first lying down (which was used at Bisley)
I'm wondering the same thing. I have a visual image of Tommy Bubba drilling and tapping the stock:-).
I copied this from that site regarding the P'14 rimfire conversions. It's from the chronology list of .22 trainers.
The other info in the columns are marked as n/a or unavailable.
If yours is one of those it's a desireable specimen. I wouldn't know how to set a price, but I would negotiate one to get it!
Well its Chucks and he wants to sell it but I'm probably gonna pass. The two local experts we called in said there were a few experimental s made hence the no 3 designation but it was not excepted into mass production. One said its hard to tell if this was a Greener or AG Parker because the records were destroyed. The other one said Greener always installed better sights and deleted the volley sights and AG Parker always inscribed the barrel crown. He thinks its a legit No. 3. One guessed value at $1500.00 and the other said $2000 to 2200.00. Both admit the market is largely unknown till it hits an auction.
JB White
06-15-2014, 09:18
Just curious on how you would fit a tang sight on a P14 unless it was one near the buttplate and you shot feet first lying down (which was used at Bisley)
I was thinking 1920's and the Martini conversions in the post Great War period. Had my thoughts muddled together while typing...obviously! :)
JB White
06-15-2014, 09:30
Well its Chucks and he wants to sell it but I'm probably gonna pass. The two local experts we called in said there were a few experimental s made hence the no 3 designation but it was not excepted into mass production. One said its hard to tell if this was a Greener or AG Parker because the records were destroyed. The other one said Greener always installed better sights and deleted the volley sights and AG Parker always inscribed the barrel crown. He thinks its a legit No. 3. One guessed value at $1500.00 and the other said $2000 to 2200.00. Both admit the market is largely unknown till it hits an auction.
It is indeed a nicely done professional job. Depending upon who might be looking at it on auction the price might be scary. It should fetch at least a bit more than double of a 303 in that same condition. Much better than that if someone really wants it and a bidding war starts.
If it were mine to sell I would set a reserve somewhere around $1800-$2000 just to test the market. Too bad you can't manage to get your hands on it for keeps. I know that feeling very well.
Thanks for showing it here :)
Thanks JB. He has a lot more neat guns than this one. Hopefully I can get some more photos of others. I've been drooling over an all original IH Garand.
Well its Chucks and he wants to sell it but I'm probably gonna pass. The two local experts we called in said there were a few experimental s made hence the no 3 designation but it was not excepted into mass production. One said its hard to tell if this was a Greener or AG Parker because the records were destroyed. The other one said Greener always installed better sights and deleted the volley sights and AG Parker always inscribed the barrel crown. He thinks its a legit No. 3. One guessed value at $1500.00 and the other said $2000 to 2200.00. Both admit the market is largely unknown till it hits an auction.
All P14s got the designation No3 in 1926 when the SMLE became the No1
My P14 which is still a .303 is a No3
If your "experts" are calling it a No3 just because its might be an experimental .22, then i would not place much trust in what they are saying!
All P14s got the designation No3 in 1926 when the SMLE became the No1
My P14 which is still a .303 is a No3
If your "experts" are calling it a No3 just because its might be an experimental .22, then i would not place much trust in what they are saying!
They are not. If I wrote everything they said it would take hours on this tablet. What they said is several companies...Greener, AG Parker and one other I cant remember submitted a small run of 22 trainers based on the P14 conversions. The Brits decided to stay with the Lee enfield as the donor gun and not use the No 3 platform. One says there's no way to tell because those records were destroyed, but this one would be a correct "example". The other one thinks it is and give a long list of reasons as to why. I posted the two I remember above. Its a very neat rifle regardless.
JB White
06-16-2014, 02:59
If it was a No3 rifle proposed for conversion in the private sector but never adopted by the MoD to be given its own new number...what else would we call it?
I'm pretty sure it was called a No3 or P14 for lack of another name.
If it was a No3 rifle proposed for conversion in the private sector but never adopted by the MoD to be given its own new number...what else would we call it?
I'm pretty sure it was called a No3 or P14 for lack of another name.
A P14 in .22 or a No3 in .22 or what ever else you wish to call it, my concern was with the words "The two local experts we called in said there were a few experimental s made hence the no 3 designation"
Sounds like they were saying it's a No3 because it's a .22
A P14 in .22 or a No3 in .22 or what ever else you wish to call it, my concern was with the words "The two local experts we called in said there were a few experimental s made hence the no 3 designation"
Sounds like they were saying it's a No3 because it's a .22
If I left that impression then that's on me. Those coversations lasted a long time with plenty of P14 versus number 3 discussion amongst all the rest. I've passed on it not because of the rifle (which I would call an example of a prototype trainer based off the WW1 P14 because the records are gone and there's no hard proof) but because I'd rather spend the money on other guns. Plus its nice to be able to post pics of stuff like it for everyone to see.
JB White
06-20-2014, 06:43
A P14 in .22 or a No3 in .22 or what ever else you wish to call it, my concern was with the words "The two local experts we called in said there were a few experimental s made hence the no 3 designation"
Sounds like they were saying it's a No3 because it's a .22
OK, I see where you are coming from now. I just brushed it aside as confusion. However should someone else read this thread they might become even more confused or misled. So, good catch on your part!
As far as what rifle this actually is...? I still don't know!! :)
Me either:-) it was a good thread though
Certainly a cool rifle what ever it is, bet there are not to many people who have one so a very good score either way p246.
Well I sold it on GB for $2035.00 shipped. Chuck was happy.
JB White
07-22-2014, 09:57
Buyer, seller, and you as a broker are all happy, then it's a good thing!
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