Help Establishing NM Price

[Hip's Ax]

Greetings, I got a phone call late last night from an old close friend. Another good friend has decided to start selling off his rifles and this guy is an old match shooter. I didn't even know he had this NM M1 but then again he bought it before I was born.

In the Mid 1950's my friend shot at Camp Perry and was allowed to purchase the NM M1 he had been shooting. He estimates it has 550 rounds total through it. He has the government release papers but he is reluctant to let them out of his hands as his address has not changed.

Question: I want this rifle, how much should I pay with and without the paperwork? I want to make sure I am fair. I have not yet seen the rifle but I will assume it is in very nice condition knowing my friend and how he is with his rifles. Since he purchased it in person after competing with the rifle there is no packaging, just the rifle and maybe or maybe not the paperwork.

Thank You In Advance. :)

[Rick B]

Those papers are key to value. How much is left to the parties to decide. I bought mine with everything including the box but only paid $2,000. Rick B

http://imageshack.com/a/img845/3929/vo3f.jpg

[JimF]

The rifle is most likely a "Type 1" National Match.

If it truly has remained untouched or "upgraded" since purchased, it is worth in excess of $5,000. (Most "Type 1" rifles were upgraded to "Type 2", thereby cutting value in half!)

JMHO, --Jim

[Hip's Ax]

Rick, Thanks for the info and the photo! Some months ago a similar NM to yours was offered to me but is currently on hold. It was bought in 1973 (?) after the DCM started selling NM rifles again after the long break caused by the unpleasantness of 1968. It is as new in the box (my friend put 1 clip through it when received to make sure it worked), I figured the right price is $3000 for that, nice score on your part.

[Hip's Ax]

Jim, Wow. OK, I am quite certain the rifle is as it was back in the mid 50's but I will now make sure. I quietly figured the rifle by itself as a non-verified NM was worth maybe $1500 and with the chit maybe $2000, really really glad I asked. :)

[Hip's Ax]

BTW, keep the advice coming guys. At these prices I will not be buying this rifle but will help steer my friend to selling the rifle to an appropriate collector so it does not get swallowed up by some gomer who is just going to let it rust.

[2111]

If he used it at Camp Perry in the "mid 1950's" and purchased it at that time, it is a "Type 1". Type 1 is a "collectors term" to describe a NM rifle built before the introduction of glass bedding in 1960. Ask your friend if he upgraded the rifle with newer NM parts as they became available, such as front and rear sights, op rod and maybe the gas cylinder. If so, this should not effect the price very much, if at all. The original parts were the same as found on a regular service rifle of the period the rifle was built. The original sales receipt will make a difference in value as the Type 1, being a "service rifle as issued" other than the NM inscribed on the front of the barrel, is somewhat easy to fake. As your friend purchased the rifle at the National Matches, you know it is a Type 1 NM rifle but the lack of papers would make it difficult to sell in the future. Or at least difficult to get it's real value.
You say "He has the government release papers but he is reluctant to let them out of his hands as his address has not changed." Being about his age I can understand his thinking, but you need to explain to him. His document most likely says something like "I am buying this rifle for my own use and not for resale" and that is bothering him. Maybe if you tell him that after the passage of 60 years or so, this statement is irrelevant. Also tell him the sales document could mean a few thousand dollars to him.

[Hip's Ax]

2111, Thanks for the advice. Yes, that may be well what is making him want to keep the papers. I am going to see if he had the rifle upgraded but I have a feeling that the rifle is as handed to him at Perry. My friend was a smallbore shooter who I did not know dabbled in high power back in the day. 550 rounds is not much so I bet he never had anything done to the rifle. Just my feelings at the moment.

I am curious, if there anything in the DCM verbiage that says 60 years is long enough? I think the current CMP verbiage is 5 years.

[2111]

Not that I know of. If you post your question on the CMP forum in the "Ask Orest" section you may get your answer. I would think that if this was a problem very few M1 rifles would be allowed to change hands. I am sure that it was just to cover straw purchases as, at the time, you were limited to only one rifle from DCM in your lifetime. I think the DCM wanted to protect against someone that had not purchased a rifle in the past buying for someone that had or just buying to sell at a profit.

[Hip's Ax]

OK, I am going to see the rifle tonight. I was finally able to make time to drive up there, I shot matches of various flavors for the last 5 weekends in a row. My friend has decided to give up the paperwork. Fingers crossed, I really expect this rifle to look new and to have not been upgraded but I won't know until I see it. Been so busy I didn't get any questions answered other than the paperwork.

[Johnny P]

Ask him if a notarized bill of sale would satisfy him in the remote event a question ever came up on ownership. All the old DCM sales carried a statement to the effect that if you ever sold the weapon some agency of the federal government was to be notified. I don't know of anyone that complied, and there have been no dire consequences.

[Hip's Ax]

Thanks Johnny P, I think he's ok with letting me have the paperwork. As 2111 pointed out it has been around 60 years since he made that promise.

[Herschel]

I bought a NM M1 Rifle at Cp Perry in 1958. It came with issue type front and rear sights. I had NM sights installed in place of the issue type. If the rifle in question has NM marked sights they are probably replacements. This means the rifle is not 100% original. FWIW

[Hip's Ax]

Hey Herschel!! Long time no see. I did some homework and printed some stuff out that should let me quickly judge what the rifle is. First I have to look at the date on the chit, then I can look at this paperwork and figure out if its been changed. Frankly, with what I anticipate paying for the rifle I'll be bringing it home no matter what. Fingers crossed though.

[Hip's Ax]

OK, made it there last night. My friends were off by 10 years, the rifle was purchased in 1964. Rifle is lovely, immaculate would be the word if it were a car. SO, since its a Type II NM in perfect original condition with 550 rounds through it with the government release paperwork and the reciept, whats a fair price?

Thanks guys, I was really hopeing to be posting Type I pics today for you to drool over. >:(

[2111]

Could be a 1962 or 1963 version. 1962 will have the F6535448 barrel and the 63 will have the F7791035 barrel. If as nice as you say and has the original DCM sales documents I would think $ 4000.00 + or -, depending on condition, would be about right. The GCA, in the " Relative Value Tabulations" found in the Winter 2013 edition, sets a value of between $ 4550.00 and $ 5250.00 for an original condition Type 2 NM rifle.
You shouldn't find any upgrades as there were non after 1963, other than Bubba I guess.

[Hip's Ax]

Thanks 2111, wow I was guessing half of that. Yes, the rifle is stunning. I made an offer on this NM M1 and another NIB 22 that was there. If the answer is no then I will help them get these to the right type of collector. Thanks for the help.

[2111]

Without the DCM sales documents it would have been worth less than 1/2 the $ 4000.00 figure, maybe 1500. to 1800. IMO. Crazy, but that's how it is.
Good luck, hope it works out for you.

[Hip's Ax]

Thanks 2111, I haven't heard anything yet. Fingers crossed.

[tom gray]

Good luck on your purchase! I am patiently waiting on a friend to sell me his Typ 1 NM. He has no intention of selling at this time, but will give me first chance if he does. Hoping some day.
Tom