Early 1903 questions

[jarrodeu]

I recently purchased this rusty 1903 and was reading through John Beard's and Nick Ferris book but things don't match. It is a Springfield Armory 194,002 with a 12-10 RIA barrel. As far as I can tell the barrel looks to be the newest part on the gun. The single bolt stock was plugged and then shortened (screw moved back) and stamped with a large S (also RIA?). The sight base is the older style with the bands but the stock has the inlet for the later solid type. Sight knobs are the old small, grooved style.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Was this made by SA but then shortened by RIA or is it just a mixmaster?
Is there an SRS or other hit?
Thanks for your help,
Jarrod

[jarrodeu]

A few more pictures.

Jarrod

[Rick the Librarian]

Looks like we have a hit!

194002 011010TRP G 11TH CAV (TURNED IN)

My guess is the rifle was rebarreled, possibly as part of the change from 30-03 to 30-06, although the date may be a little late. Interesting old rifle - can I ask what you paid?

Any markings on the left side of the stock? The large S indicates the stock came from Rock Island. The rifle was "turned in" on January 10, 1910.

[curio and relic]

Rick, I'm with you thinking this is an early Rock Island rebuild (30-03 to 30-06) with new stock. If I recall
correctly, these conversions occurred thru 1910 and probably later. Does the stock have any kind of rebuild marks?

[Rick the Librarian]

The rifle will never look like a museum piece, but with some non-"invasive" cleaning, it'll look quite serviceable.

[CptEnglehorn]

nice catch, that rifle could def use a little TLC

[John Beard]

You have a very interesting rifle. By "turned in", the SRS record indicates the rifle was returned to an arsenal for overhaul and/or perhaps alteration. Since the rifle is fitted with an RIA barrel, it was probably returned to Rock Island Arsenal or to a depot that drew their supplies from Rock Island Arsenal. The barrel date is reasonably consistent with the turn-in date.

One should not assume that the present stock was on the rifle when turned in by the 11th Cavalry. The stock likely came from another rifle. And the large "S" on the fore end tip is consistent with the RIA barrel. So the stock was altered to .30-'06 caliber at Rock Island Arsenal and fitted to the rifle following alteration.

Interestingly, the open-bottom rear sight fixed base was apparently salvaged from a scrapped barrel and re-used on the R.I.A./12-10 barrel. Such re-use is not uncommon.

And finally, I note that the rifle is fitted with an RIA rear sight. This is further consistent with an RIA overhaul.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[1mark]

With the plug in the tip of the barrel would the stock have originally started out as a rod bayonet?

[Rick the Librarian]

No ... the stock is from a Rock Island M1903; the receiver is a Springfield. The serial number, I would say, dates to when M1903/05s were being produced. (M1903/05s were rifles that, on the outside looked like later M1903s, but still had the 30-03 barrel.)

[chuckindenver]

stock is an updated rod bayonet...

[Art]

What an incredibly cool rifle. I agree with Rick and CaptEnglehorn that it should be quite presentable when it's cleaned up. At the time the rifle was originally issued the 11th Cavalry was at Ft. Oglethorpe, Ga.

[Rick the Librarian]

I bought a rusted 1898 Krag for $285 a number of years ago. I spent an afternoon with a copper (NOT stainless steel!) brush and some CLP and it cleaned right up.

[Liam]

Interesting post. Confused, as it seems there are two opinions as to whether this was a rod bayonet stock. Or, am I reading this string wrong? Both Rick and Chuck are subject matter experts, so I wait with bated breath. For comparison, here's the tip of a rod bayonet stock sold at CMP auction: http://auction.odcmp.com/auctions/detail.asp?id=1002&pic=2#img

[jarrodeu]

Wow, thank you guys! I paid $600 but you should have seen it before I cleaned it up, there was a lot more rust and dirt. I didn't post pictures of the left inspection stamp because it was illegible. Last night though I took a closer look and it does look like a very faint scrip C as found on a Conrad Nelson stamp. Not even a hint of the date. There is also a single script P as would be expected.

So basically, the Rock Island stock was originally a rod bayonet stock that was modified twice, once for the blade bayonet and once for the 30-06?

As far as cleaning, I was worried I might take too much off so stopped there. I would rather have it look not clean enough than too clean. I used Kroil oil and 0000 fine steel wool, was this a bad thing to do? Any ideas on the stock? There is what looks like some masking tape residue on right side that I would like to take off but I'm not sure how.

Below is a picture of the in progress cleaning. Lots of rust, dirt, and mold.

Thanks again,
Jarrod

[Rick the Librarian]

The stock started out as a RB stock. Note the square "plug". I would guess it was converted into a M1903/05 stock, but I admit, am a little less sure of that.

I love taking an old, rusted rifle and making it look presentable! Nice job!

[1563621]

Nice job.

[John Beard]

The stock did indeed start out as a rod bayonet stock. The stock was converted later to an M1905 knife bayonet stock in .30-'03 caliber. The stock was converted again still later to a M1906 Type S knife bayonet stock in .30-'06 caliber. The last conversion was done at Rock Island Arsenal, at which time the large "S" denoting the type designation was stamped on the fore end tip.

J.B.

[curio and relic]

Rick, I'm thinking that the stock started life on a rod bayonet rifle. The stock looks to have the holes, for the bayonet, drilled thru the stock webbing.
Also, why would the armory(s) plug the end of the stock, rather than just do a set back of 2/10 of an inch? Is there a small S on the back of the hand guard next to the rear sight?

[Rick the Librarian]

The design of the rod bayonet M1903 was totally different than the later one with the upper band/bayonet stud. They had to plug the opening (which contained the rod bayonet and mechanism. Keep in mind that the so-called "M1903/05" was a transition (although not thought so at the time. When RB M1903s were converted, there was no though that a further conversion would be needed to the 30-06.

The M1903/05 had a barrel 24.2" long, even though it had the upper band and bayonet stud of the later M1903s. When the barrel was rechambered for 30-06, it was .2" shorter - thus the need for the slightly different location for the upper band and upper band screw.

[jarrodeu]

Do you guys have any suggestions for cleaning the stock up a bit? At the very least I would like to get the tape residue off. Would a damp rag damage anything?
Thanks,
Jarrod

[Fred]

Use acetone on a rag. Then wipe all residue off with a cotton rag. and then apply linseed oil and allow it to soak in a few minutes and then wipe off the excess oil and continue to rub the stock down with your hands, working the oil into the wood.

[John Beard]

Acetone will leach all oil and color out of the stock, leaving a light spot. Mineral spirits is a better solvent for wood.

J.B.

[jarrodeu]

Regular linseed oil or boiled linseed oil?

Jarrod

[Rick the Librarian]

Always best to start with the "least invasive" cleaner on a stock. I wipe down with a VERY slightly damp rag, then use a furniture cleaner, followed by linseed oil. As you see, there are numerous was to take care of a stock - but I agree with John; I'd leave acetone alone.

[Fred]

Agree with you both on the acetone. Mineral Spirits is the right thing on this job. I've used raw and boiled linseed oil. I don't have a preference. However after the residual oil has dried on the stock, I've taken Artists Stand Oil, which is a really thick linseed oil in a small bottle, and Hand Rub drops of it onto the stock, allowing the wood to heat up under your hands and fingers as you apply friction while rubbing the stand oil into the stock and hand guard. This will dry relatively quickly after wiping off any excess with a rag. The stand oil fills the wood fibers of the surface wood and when dry, will toughen the wood and give the wood a resistance from light dents and will also makes the surface of the wood water resistant and less likely to soak up water in misty and wet weather. It also gives a gun stock that sheen one finds on antique guns that have been faithfully cared for over their life.

[Emri]

As far as cleaning, I was worried I might take too much off so stopped there. I would rather have it look not clean enough than too clean. I used Kroil oil and 0000 fine steel wool, was this a bad thing to do? Any ideas on the stock? There is what looks like some masking tape residue on right side that I would like to take off but I'm not sure how.

There is no need to use expensive Kroil for cleaning. Any thin oil or WD40 even works as it is a lubricant only and will be wiped off. Forget the OOOO wool as it shreds too easily and makes a mess. You can increase size to OO or even O and it won't scratch the metal but will be aggressive on the active rust.

As for the stock, Johns suggestion on mineral spirits is good. Follow up with stock oil. If the stock is dirty you might try Murphey's Oil Soap followed by drying and stock oil.


HTH,

Emri

[John Beard]

At risk to being accused of blasphemy, I recommend tung oil over linseed oil. If one intends to use linseed oil, however, be absolutely certain to use a type that has been treated to be non-photochemically reactive. Otherwise, the oil (and stock) will turn jet black after prolonged exposure to ultraviolet or sunlight.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[Fred]

That explains my old Remington 03 whose stock was black.

[1mark]

Remember when using any oils do not wad the rags as they can spontaneously combust. I always put them in a metal can with water.

[jarrodeu]

Thanks for your help everyone! I will give it a try.

Jarrod