Am I Missing Something - 357 Magnum ?

[leecork]

I recently acquired a SW 357 Magnum Model 65-3. Of course, it will also handle the 38 special cartridge. I have a fair amount of experience in reloading, and last night completed the reloading of 200 38 special cartridges using 4.6 grains of TiteGroup and 125 grain bullets.

I couldn't help but notice that the 38 special brass could have held much more powder than called for in my reference manuals. Now for my question.

What would or should stop a person from creating (in effect) 357 loads using the 38 special brass ? I know that there is plenty of room in the brass case for additional powder. I could switch to Hodgdon 110 powder, small pistol magnum primers and 158 grain bullets. Has anyone here ever tried this approach ? Thanks in advance for your thoughts/advice. Lee Hoffman

[JimF]

I wouldn't try to "magnumize" a .38 Special case . . . .especially the older versions . . . . 'cause the thickness, just ahead of the web, is thinner than a true magnum case.

I think you could use a case that is marked "+P", or "+P+", but, even then, not load them quite up to .357 Magnum specs.

Just my opimion! --Jim

[Tuna]

Yes you can load the .38 spl brass way up in pressure close to .357 magnum pressures and they shoot OK in a .357 magnum BUT if just one loaded round was to escape your possession and was fired in a .38 spl revolver which very well might be destroyed by it, then your open to a whole lot of lawyer troubles especially if someone got hurt. .38 spl loads are made for .38 spl revolvers while .357 magnum loads are made for .357 magnum revolvers. It's all about safety, operating pressure and not case capacity.

[Art]

Short answer, I agree with Tuna.

Longer answer: The .38 Special was originally a black powder cartridge, hence the extra space in the cartridge case.

People have been punching up the .38 Special for a long time. The old .38 Special High Velocity of the 1930s was a very high pressure load that was intended for use in big frame .38s only. The old S&W "N" Frame .38-44 Outdoorsman was specifically designed for this cartridge. The .367 Magnum was a follow on to the .38 H.V. and was even more potent requiring a slightly longer case to avoid screw ups that could lead to blow ups. I once fired some .38 Special H.V. through a S&W Model 15. Recoil and Muzzle blast were impressive to say the very least, noticibly heavier than .38 Special +P or +P+. I understand it pushed a 158 gr. round nose bullet about 1100 fps. I definitely wouldn't shoot those out of a "K" frame .38 again and I still have a few of those lying around.

I know a couple of very prudent handgun reloaders of vast experience. They strongly recommend not trying to duplicate .357 factory top end loads when reloading, and that includes .357 Magnum brass. They consider the practice unnecessary and possibly dangerous. They figure any hand load that pushes a 125 gr bullet at 1200-1300 FPS or a 158 gr. bullet 1000 to 1100 fps more than adequate for anything but "serious social encounters" and they prefer the excellent Federal or Remington 125 gr. full power factory loads for that eventuality.

So you could probably safely duplicate .357 Magnum loads in a .38 Special case but the margin for error would be very, very fine indeed, and Tuna's warning about the consequences if somebody were to get one of those super hot .38 loads and try to fire them through their airweight Chief's Special or old Colt Agent are right on the money.

[leecork]

I want to thank you for your information and knowledge. OK, I am now convinced that it was a unreasonable question. I have decided just to go ahead and purchase some 357 magnum and not try the 38 special idea.

Forums like this help less experienced shooters to keep informed and safe. Again, thanks.
Lee Hoffman

[psteinmayer]

+1 on Tuna also! Besides, 357 brass is available, and not terribly expensive either. Check out Graf & Sons, or Midway. Cabelas also usually has some in stock.

[Vern Humphrey]

In THEORY, you can use .357 loading data with .38 Special brass IF your overall load length is the same as the .357. If you load to .357 lengths, the round will probably not chamber in a .38 Special revolver, since the bullet will get stuck in the chamber throat before the cartridge is all the way home in the chamber.

But why try it? Get .357 brass, and reserve your .38 Special brass for mild plinking loads.

[Parashooter]

. . . If you load to .357 lengths, the round will probably not chamber in a .38 Special revolver, since the bullet will get stuck in the chamber throat before the cartridge is all the way home in the chamber.

This assertion is generally erroneous. Most revolver cylinder throats are bored larger than major bullet diameter, not smaller. .38 Specials loaded to .357 Magnum length may be too long for some .38 Special cylinders - but they normally won't be too fat.

[mikld]

.38 Special brass can be loaded to .357 Mag. velocities and pressures, but do not use the same data! The powder charges for .357 Mag. stuffed in a smaller .38 Special case would give much higher, prolly unsafe pressures due to the smaller case capacity. I have mistakenly loaded some "light" .357 Magnum loads in .38 brass, but only fired them in my .357 Magnums. No difficult extraction and when I measured the case heads, no difference...

[Art]

mikid is correct. When factories work up loads they have access to much more sophisticated equipment than any of us can dream of having at home so they can deal with variables a person "rolling his own" can't. They also play with propellants so the powder in the factory ammo you buy might well be unavailable for private purchase.

[Vern Humphrey]

This assertion is generally erroneous. Most revolver cylinder throats are bored larger than major bullet diameter, not smaller. .38 Specials loaded to .357 Magnum length may be too long for some .38 Special cylinders - but they normally won't be too fat.

I currently only have one .38 Special revolver, a Colt Detective Special. It is not possible to chamber a .357 Mag round in that revolver, nor will it take a dummy .38 Special loaded to the same OAL as a .357.

[Tuna]

There are some old .38 spl revolvers that will accept an extra long .38 spl. In fact a Spanish made copy of a S&W I have has a cylinder long enough that it will chamber a .357 magnum round. The real bad part is the cylinder was made for the .38 long Colt round.

[Parashooter]

I currently only have one .38 Special revolver, a Colt Detective Special. It is not possible to chamber a .357 Mag round in that revolver, nor will it take a dummy .38 Special loaded to the same OAL as a .357.

Naturally we wouldn't expect a .357 round to fit in a .38 Special cylinder - if made right, the chamber is about .14" too short.

If a .38 Special round, loaded to any length, won't chamber fully in a .38 Special cylinder, there are several possibilities -

The cylinder throat is tighter than standard - or is heavily fouled.
The bullet is fatter than standard.
The loaded round is longer than cylinder + headspace. (For my Police Positive Special, that's 1.57" + .06" = 1.63". A Detective Special should be about the same. SAAMI maximum length for .357 Magnum is just 1.59" - but many handloads and some factory rounds are loaded longer.)

[dave]

I have reloads of .38 Spec. sold by companies who do this commercially, and sell thru gun shops. Some cases are marked +P and I will not shoot these in a .38 revolver. Everyone can make mistakes! I put them aside and use them in my Browning M-92 rifle.

[Sunray]

4.6 grains of Titegroup is a max load for a 125. You work up to that or just pick it and hope? Isn't dangerous, but it likely won't be as accurate as you'd want either. You will find that loading .357 brass to .38 velocities makes cleaning the lube gunk out of the cylinders after shooting .38's go away too. The gunk comes right out with a .45 calibre brush, but using .357 cases with .38 loads makes it just go away.
Case capacity means little. The burn rate of the powder used does though.
"...since the bullet will get stuck..." OAL of like bullets is roughly 1/10" longer with the .357. Far more likely to keep the cylinder from rotating or closing at all. Has nothing to do with the throat.
A case that is marked "+P" or "+P+" is exactly the same as a case that is not marked thusly. Those stamps mean nothing about the case itself. They're only about the loads, not the case. They exist so the factory won't get those loads mixed in with a standard load.