1st Allin Shortened (2 Band)

[cimiM1]

I recently purchased a 1st Allin Conversion rifle that matches the traits described in both Flaydermans and Mr. Hosmer's book. I wanted to add some info to the board and note that mine has a "19" stamped on the top of the butt plate and there also seems to be a small "S" stamped above the top of the butt plate on the stock.

[Dick Hosmer]

I'll have to look at mine again. Interesting gun - don't know if we will ever settle for sure whether they were done by SA, or an outside firm such as Whitney. FWIW, the sighting notch variation has been noted on 1865s of both lengths, so the short ones were not run off all at one time.

[cimiM1]

I'll check the sighting notch on mine tomorrow. I missed that in my initial inspection. I'll also try to get some images of the markings.

[John Sukey]

I always thought that version was shortened for the cadets at West Point. Had one many years ago

[Kragrifle]

From an article in Man At Arms, my take was to make the earlier 3 banders more like the later 1868 and 1870 two band Allins.

[Dick Hosmer]

From an article in Man At Arms, my take was to make the earlier 3 banders more like the later 1868 and 1870 two band Allins.

Wasn't that article (if you are thinking of the one about 20 years ago by Frank Mallory) specific to the 1866? I do not recall anything about the 1865. The "well-done" short 1865s are still a mystery as far as I know. The ugly ones with severely thinned wrists and odd band spacing are not SA work. If Flayderman is correct, there were only 270 of the properly proportioned ones, but they seem to turn up with a frequency greater than what would be expected for such a low total.

[Kragrifle]

Hi Dick,
You are correct. Both of these muskets have been an interest of mine.

[Dick Hosmer]

At least some of the pictures for that article were taken at the late Graham Burnside's home in Dundee, IL - and, yours truly was holding the rifles, off camera. It was an impromptu photo shoot, done without proper lighting or fixtures. The occasion was one of Graham's famous annual hog-roasts. Good memories!

[cimiM1]

Took a while but here are some photos. I hope they linked up.

http://s36.photobucket.com/user/cimiM1/library/1st%20Allin

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for sharing. They linked OK, but didn't (yet, at least) show much of interest, and, I hate to say anything, but the focus is really bad.

[Tkacook]

Do you have pictures of the complete rifle? I have one as well. I thought these were done by Bannerman.

[Dick Hosmer]

Some were; the fugly ones with toothpick wrists and oddly-spaced bands.

The jury is still out on the proper looking ones.

[cimiM1]

I'll try to get better pictures and post the ones of the entire rifle. This one has properly fitted plugs in the band spring holes and the nose cap fit matches that of my 2nd Allin and 1863. No thinning at the wrist.

[cimiM1]

2 years but I finally did it.

[cimiM1]

One more

[Tkacook]

Thanks for posting those!

[cimiM1]

Thanks for posting those!

Look similar to yours?

[Tkacook]

I am embarrassed to say that I have a shortened 2nd Allin, not a 1st. Miss-read your title in the original post. And no it's not as nice as that, but it's a good shooter.

38885

[cimiM1]

Thanks for posting the photo. I have a full length 2nd if you'd care to see some photos.

[Tkacook]

Always love to see trapdoor pictures!

[Kragrifle]

I have two of the "proper" two band first Allins. The best description is in the little catalog that Joe DeChristopher published years ago.

[Fred]

Neat trapdoor!

[Edatbeach]

FWIW, my reasoning that this "short M1865 rifle" (as described by DeChristopher) is NOT an SA product is as follows:
1. The stock shows the original middle band spring slot, filled in. SA apparently did not use this approach: in the earlier M1864 SA "short rifle musket" (Moller Vol. III p. 336-8) and the later M1866 Short Rifle, stocks were provided without the filled middle band spring slot.
2. The barrel is not tapered full length to a 0.780 inch muzzle to fit the M1855 bayonet; the taper starts behind the front band, at about 10 inches from the muzzle. SA tapered the M1866 Short Rifle barrels full length.
3. On my example, the cut for the stock ridge at the front band was done with a saw (like Harpers Ferry did early on, not SA), and the front section then tapered. Traces of the saw cut remain -- not SA quality.
4. The muzzle crown, flat with the inside taper, is not typical of SA work.
5. The ramrod is shortened roughly, with the cut end unevenly filed to a "crown."
6. The ramrod/clearing rod cut at the front of the stock, where the rod has the bulge for retention, is unevenly done -- not SA work

I'm open to other proof, but so far, actual documentation is lacking.