View Full Version : British Marked Colt M1911A1 Questions
In my possession I have a all correct Colt produced M1911A1 of WW II vintage. The S/N is 1653825. Not sure if it is a Lend Lease pistol or not. On the frame partially over the cartouche is a crossed sceptre, surrounding the X formed by the sceptre is a dot at the top and a D on the left a 2 on the bottom and a B on the right. Right of the grip is a circle with a crown on it with a BV in the circle, right of that is NOTENGLISHMADE. On the barrel in a row are three circles with crowns in them are BV, BP, & NP. On the slide to the rear of the ejection port is NOTENGLISHMADE and a circle with a crown with BV in the circle. I think the piece has been reparked as none of the stampings show any bare metal in the stamps. Best guesses.........?
Johnny P
08-15-2014, 12:15
Birmingham Proof House commercial proofs dating to 1953. The markings won't necessarily show any bare metal, but should show some burnishing. The original finish on the barrel was blue, and if refinished is probably phosphate.
Birmingham Proof House commercial proofs dating to 1953. The markings won't necessarily show any bare metal, but should show some burnishing. The original finish on the barrel was blue, and if refinished is probably phosphate.
Barrel is blued. Would a Lend Lease pistol have later proofs on it?
Johnny P
08-15-2014, 02:20
The Lend-Lease Model 1911A1 pistols were not proofed when they arrived in England. Military weapons did not have to be proofed, but once they were released for commercial sale they had to be proofed. The British government started releasing them for sale in 1952.
Is there some Lend-lease M 1911A1 pistols send to England in collectors hands without proof marks?
Johnny P
09-02-2014, 05:50
Before the small arms sent to England under the Lend-Lease program could be sold commercially they had to be proofed. If somehow one was slipped out of England without being proofed, there would be no way of knowing that it was Lend-Lease, and it really wouldn't make any difference one way or the other. The main attraction of the Lend-Lease 1911A1 was that it came back in virtually new if not new condition.
hello Johnny,
Here in my country we often encountered M1911A1 wearing British proof, maybe I'd like to get one, as a part of the history of M1911A1, so to make it clear in my mind, 'cause it's a bit confusing for me!
When the pistol left the factory and was lend & lease example to Great Britain, the pistol was free of any foreign marks, is that right?
If so, the gun was proofed at the arriving in England with a British view marks (V, toped with a crown) on barrel, receiver, slide, during War time.
After in 1952, guns was release to commercial sales and wearing on it. "Not English Make" and "Released British Govt. 1952"
Afterward in 1955 (proof act of 1955) these inscriptions was eliminated as well as the view marks, keeping just BNP Birmingham Nitro proof on slide, receiver, and barrel (.45 .900" 7 Tons per S/Inches)
Thanks
Johnny P
09-02-2014, 07:44
Hope this posts as I haven't had any luck so far. I keep getting a message that my post needs to be at least 1 character long??????
hello Johnny,
"Here in my country we often encountered M1911A1 wearing British proof, maybe I'd like to get one, as a part of the history of M1911A1, so to make it clear in my mind, 'cause it's a bit confusing for me!
When the pistol left the factory and was lend & lease example to Great Britain, the pistol was free of any foreign marks, is that right?"
Yes. There were no other markings other than those applied by the manufacturer to all Model 1911A1 pistols. While some pistols were direct shipments to England, most were shipped to Springfield Armory, and then destined for England.
"If so, the gun was proofed at the arriving in England with a British view marks (V, toped with a crown) on barrel, receiver, slide, during War time."
The pistol was not proofed upon arriving in England. It was proofed when released for commercial sale beginning in 1952
"After in 1952, guns was release to commercial sales and wearing on it. "Not English Make" and "Released British Govt. 1952"
Afterward in 1955 (proof act of 1955) these inscriptions was eliminated as well as the view marks, keeping just BNP Birmingham Nitro proof on slide, receiver, and barrel (.45 .900" 7 Tons per S/Inches)"
That is correct, and the same proof law was also administered by the London Proof House.
"Thanks"
Mikecp-------- When the Brit military recieved them they had only Colt proofs on them (US does not have a proof law, so its up to the manufacturer). The Brit military added no marks nor did they proof the pistols. Only when they were released for civilian sales were they proofed!
Thanks for your kind answer Dave.
"the US has no proof laws, its up to the manufacturer." This was due to the principals this country was founded on. Self relience, no un-necessary goverment interfearence, and you are responsible for your actions! In other words no 'nanny' state. That is all changing now but it seems they have not thought of proof laws to control guns-----yet!
Johnny P
09-02-2014, 02:11
It did not matter if a firearm came from a country that did have a gun proof law unless they had a reciprocal proof law with England. If not, the firearm still had to be proofed before it could be sold there. Germany had a gun proof law but they had no agreement with England, and any German made firearm had to be proofed before being sold in England.
Speaking of German proof law here is a U.S. manufactured Colt 1911A1 s/n 912419 Russian Lend Lease that made its way back to the States via a dealer in Germany in the 90's. Note the darker than normal finish. I was told the Russians put this black looking finish over our green parked finish but why I don't know. It almost looks like an oil or grease was applied and darkened the original parkerizing over time. None of the original detail or markings on the pistol were compromised by the coating and there is absolutely no sign of buffing. Whatever it is it did not take hold on the bright metal where the original parked finish was absent or broken by stamps applied after original finish e.g. Crossed Cannon escutcheon, inspectors mark and staking. The pistol appears to be unissued in like new condition.
http://i60.tinypic.com/91jewj.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/2my0rur.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/eiwpxf.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/k3ly04.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/se4pk1.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/fe0y03.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/15nrgw5.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/2cs9pj9.jpg
For those that might be interested in British marked Commercial pistols, there are some differences (in markings) with the Government Models (and other arms) purchased by the British government through the British Purchasing Commission and the use of the Crown-W mark Inspector's stamp. (See p. 131 of CWC's Commercial book, 2nd Edition.)
Johnny P
09-03-2014, 07:03
Great photos of the German proofs and nice pistol. I always thought it was ironic that the modern German proof was virtually identical to the Nazi Army proof used up until the 1939 time period, with just the N added.
Great photos of the German proofs and nice pistol. I always thought it was ironic that the modern German proof was virtually identical to the Nazi Army proof used up until the 1939 time period, with just the N added.
Before the Nazi changed the proof to the eagle/swatzica stamp 'on military arms only', the military proof was the Weimer proof with the 'dropped wings', no letter. The commercial proofs were different then the military ones, even during the Nazi period. Look at any KKW or DSM 'training 22 rifle to see what I mean. They are the ones using letters, N meaning nitro, for instense. Some were eagles (no swatsica), some were crowns.
That 'antler proof' is from a particular Geramn proof house, it was used on some WW1 Gew.98's. Can't remember which one, maybe Elm?
Johnny P
09-03-2014, 11:41
For those that were confused by my brief explanation of the similarity between the modern German proof and the Nazi era droop eagle proof I apologize. Instead of using with just the N added, for clarity I probably should have said the Nazi Army proof did not have a N.
For those wondering about a Nazi era KK-W, here are the Nazi commercial proofs.
http://i59.tinypic.com/2zivddw.jpg
For those that were confused by my brief explanation of the similarity between the modern German proof and the Nazi era droop eagle proof I apologize. Instead of using with just the N added, for clarity I probably should have said the Nazi Army proof did not have a N.
For those wondering about a Nazi era KK-W, here are the Nazi commercial proofs.
http://i59.tinypic.com/2zivddw.jpg
So was the spread wing eagle pictured used with or without letter other than the Nazi era?
More info on the proof marks
The Stag horn indicates the ULM proof house and the KF is a date code KF = 1995
The date coding system is very simple too. It gets tricky when you start talking about non-proofed products like firearm magazines, but the general rule is thus:
A B C D E F G H I K
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Does anyone else out there have or have seen one of the Russian Lend Lease 1911A1 pistols?
Scott Gahimer
09-04-2014, 07:31
Yes, and I'm pretty sure you've seen and we've discussed mine. So, I assume your question is directed at others. I will add, however, that I've seen and/or know about perhaps 7 or 8 of these pistols. I initially was going to purchase one from a dealer at a gun show, but ultimately decided I didn't like the way it looked (maybe recently refinished). That didn't appeal to me, as I'd seen others previously that did not have the same finish. Yours and mine, as we've previously discussed, are very similar and have the appearance that I'd expect to see.
Johnny P
09-04-2014, 11:04
So was the spread wing eagle pictured used with or without letter other than the Nazi era?
Prior to the Eagle/N commercial proof, a Crown/N was the commercial proof. The Nazi's used the same small eagle over a swastika for the Army proof beginning in 1939.
This Crown/N proof is on a 1934 era PPK.
http://i61.tinypic.com/2w3536e.jpg
Yes, and I'm pretty sure you've seen and we've discussed mine. So, I assume your question is directed at others. I will add, however, that I've seen and/or know about perhaps 7 or 8 of these pistols. I initially was going to purchase one from a dealer at a gun show, but ultimately decided I didn't like the way it looked (maybe recently refinished). That didn't appeal to me, as I'd seen others previously that did not have the same finish. Yours and mine, as we've previously discussed, are very similar and have the appearance that I'd expect to see.
Scott I do recall discussing this with you but lately my memory is hit miss, something that will not be a factor once my treatment is finished. Thank you for reminding me and I will check it out in your gallery. BTW Could this be considered a thread hi-jacking, if so I apologize to the originator.
Thanks Johnny
I know Germany did make an effort to do away with any Nazi reminders after the war.
Johnny P
09-04-2014, 02:11
Before the Eagle/swastika firing proof the Nazi's droop wing eagle proof virtually identical to the Weimar era proof. Can't remember if I have anything Weimar proofed or not. The modern day German proof, sans the N, is very similar to the Weimar and early Nazi proof.
Then there is the tendency to call all markings "proofs", when that is not the case.
Colt M1911A1 1943 with German Proof, released to commercial sales.
Eagle Nitro proof, second Shield for Munich, and 1978 stamp.
http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q520/Kit1946/IMG_0073_zps93ea67fa.jpg (http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Kit1946/media/IMG_0073_zps93ea67fa.jpg.html)
http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q520/Kit1946/P1010074_zpsca3ab6de.jpg (http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Kit1946/media/P1010074_zpsca3ab6de.jpg.html)
Thanks Mikecp
Looks like original finish,is it? Do you have any addition history on it? could you provide a serial number range?
Shooter5
09-04-2014, 08:09
More info on the proof marks
The Stag horn indicates the ULM proof house and the KF is a date code KF = 1995
The date coding system is very simple too. It gets tricky when you start talking about non-proofed products like firearm magazines, but the general rule is thus:
A B C D E F G H I K
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Astounding. So, some geek nerd idiot designed an entire "code" of letters in order to indicate numbers. This, when he could have simply used this amazing system of symbols which were invented to represent numbers; amazingly enough, this system is called "numbers."
Thanks Mikecp
Looks like original finish,is it? Do you have any addition history on it? could you provide a serial number range?
Unfortunately I do not have any history, I bought it in a gun shop, and no background on it. The blue barrel is a field replacement from Springfield with the heat lot number AG1 ( 1941-mid 1943) blue magazine has a CL under it (Colt Little)
The only info came from a Colt letter, and was send to:
US Gov. transportation Officer Springfield Armory by 17 February 1943.
Here few pictures.:hello:
http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q520/Kit1946/P1010073_zpsb9870264.jpg
http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q520/Kit1946/Colt1911A1002_zps9291cc4d.jpg
http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q520/Kit1946/P1010056_zpsa144b6f8.jpg
Could be a pistol captured by the Germans from a US or allied soldier.Nice looking and Interesting pistol thanks for the info.
Greg
What is the serial # range for that PPK, John? & is it marked PPK or is it one of the first 200 that were marked PP? thanks.
Johnny P
09-05-2014, 10:21
Serial range is 821000 and marked PPK. Bluing is fantastic, but I failed to remove all the oil before photographing it.
I have told the story previously, but one of those days when the collecting gods were looking out for me. The pistol was in a nondescript black pebble grain holster that did not fit, but I was just glad to get the pistol. Just before the seller walked away he ask if I needed an extra holster. Naturally I wanted to look, and when he pulled the holster out of his jacket pocket it was the original Akah holster for the PPK, and to top it off when I got it home the bring-back papers were folded up in the spare magazine pocket.
http://i57.tinypic.com/5dwche.jpg
A right fair purty piece there, john........... congrats sir.
The gift that kept on giving. Very nice find.
PhillipM
09-06-2014, 01:48
Stunning. Thanks for sharing, Johnny.
Does anyone else out there have or have seen one of the Russian Lend Lease 1911A1 pistols?
A friend of mine here in Fla. has one with the original finish. Might still have some pictures of it. Found a link to where I had posted the pictures before: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?21968-U.S.-M1911A1-Lend-Leased-to-Russia-during-WWII
Thanks USMC69. That is one of the Commercial Lend Lease pistols from WWI, also rare and desirable.
A friend of mine here in Fla. has one with the original finish. Might still have some pictures of it. Found a link to where I had posted the pictures before: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?21968-U.S.-M1911A1-Lend-Leased-to-Russia-during-WWII
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