Singer grip comparison

[Tommy2guns]

Here are a few more photos of the singer grips in comparison to a set of the hollow back Colt 1911 grips with the re-enforcement ring as well ad a pair of Keyes grips without the ring as well.

Note the slightly tighter and smaller grid pattern of the singer compared to the Colt. The Keyes grips appear to follow the Singer characteristics a lot closer than the Colt example.

[gbethu]

Are both grips depicted in the third photo (showing the back of the grips ) Singer's ????

[Tommy2guns]

The one on the left is the hollow back set of Colt grips.

[Ed P]

When I count the rows between the rings on the Keyes and the Singer they are the same. 30 row between the rings.

[Tommy2guns]

Per Clawson's big ole book a 1911 gun knowledge. Or as I like to call it, "45s for idiots" he states that Singer made every part for their 1911A1 pistol except the grips.

They were manufactured by Keyes in New York City without the strengthening ribs. So I guess that explains the close characteristic to the standard Keyes grips that were made for other makes of 1911s.

And please don't think for a second I am referring to you as an idiot. I had to look it up myself.

Thank you for the comment....

[Ed P]

Its a pretty tough find to find a Singer with all the correct parts, usually the mags have been switched out. Is that Singer yours? About 5 years ago I found a Singer barrel at the Reno Show, yes it was actually a Singer barrel. Also, a person turned me on to a single sided Singer grip panel that Simpsons had for sale. At that time it was $500 for a left Singer panel. I know several people out there with Singers looking for parts to complete there guns, if they come up. Probably most gave up.

[tanker trash]

Thanks for the pics. I have a set of unmarked, hollow back, no ring grips that I have always wondered about.

[Tommy2guns]

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[Tommy2guns]

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[Scott Gahimer]

Wow...$2K for an appraisal? That's unreal. Of course, IIRC, Ralph Shattuck used to do appraisals and charge 15% of the appraised value for his work. So most of the items he appraised were valued pretty high. :) $2K is 4X as high as my highest price for authenticating anything. My prices are shown on my web site and haven't changed since launching the site in 2010. But...maybe it's time for an increase! :) :)

I believe it was the old Auction Arms or GunBroker thar used to have a link to a guy in CO who was a licensed appraiser. Before I launched my web site, I decided to give him a call and ask him about appraising a military .45 for me...to check out my "competition" :) and hear what his process was. I spoke with him about 5 minutes and realized he didn't really know anything about the pistols, serial ranges, finishes, variations, etc... He just told me to e-mail him "a photo" of the gun, pay him $XX (I don't remember how much) and he'd e-mail me the appraised value.

I asked him how he was able to authenticate the finish and parts as being original if he didn't inspect the pistol in-hand? He told me he didn't authenticate anything as an appraiser, he just told me what it was worth. I may not be the brightest boy on the block, but I know if you can't verify the originality of parts and finish, you sure can't know what you are trying to value. Needless to say, I didn't think much of how he "appraised" things.

But of course, I don't hold myself out to be an appraiser. When I write an inspection report for a pistol, I concentrate on authenticating what is correct and original. In fact, I generally encourage folks to not insist on having me put a value on something I inspect. When a value is placed on an item, it sometimes limits what a fellow might get, should he decide to sell. If he holds the pistol five years, someone might read the report and believe the pistol has not appreciated at all.

I'm convinced that an accurate report is all that is required to ensure one gets fair market value when selling. Most buyers/bidders have trouble determining what's right and what's wrong. They're lost because they don't know what they are looking at. Remove the doubt and people will bid/buy with confidence. The only thing that's really important is what the pistol is. The market will take care of the rest.

Some collectors regularly use others to authenticate for them. There's nothing wrong with that scenario, provided the person authenticating knows what he is talking about. We've seen numerous examples, however, where that apparently wasn't the case. Sadly, in some cases, I think people are too proud to pay for good information. Bad information is worse than none at all. And big names don't always equate to knowledge. Many here can cite multiple examples of refinished and misrepresented pistols being sold by folks considered to be experts, honest, etc...

So what's the best option? Spend the time it takes to learn what it takes to make your own decisions. Of course, anyone who knows anything will tell you it literally takes decades to do that. And too many people simply refuse to do the work and spend the time to learn. They want to jump right in and build collections. Looking at someone's collection is the easiest way for me to learn what someone knows. Even a blind hog turns up an acorn now and then. Such is the case with many collections I've examined. In many cases, there are more bad ones than good ones. Rarely is the collector knowledgeable enough to have all pieces to be what he thinks they are. That's a shame.

I'm not really sure I understand the comment about an appraiser having pistols for sale...or how that would somehow be a bad thing or influence his ability to be able to inspect a different pistol and offer an opinion. In my own case, for example, I own several hundred pistols of my own. On my site, I show about 750+/- examples, and some of those are not mine. Some were sent to me for inspection and documentation. I think I currently have only about 6 items for sale in my Classifieds. Only one or two of those belong to me. Some collectors send guns to me to inspect and list for sale on my site. I do the inspections and photography. Our local gun shop handles all the transfers in and out.

I've bought a few guns from Scott Meadows over the years. I've literally purchased 60+ pistols from Chuck Clawson, but never felt them having a gun or guns for sale had anything to do with what they knew. In some cases, guns were even offered to me when I shared what I was looking to buy from someone else. That's just part of collecting and networking.

[Tommy2guns]

Well obviously you think I am referring to you and or your website or you wouldn't have written this long winded defense of your activities.

People can do whatever they choose with their money and their collections. I'm not here to tell anyone any different but I know for a first hand knowledge of fact that the scenario regarding the Singer and the $2000 for an inspection is completely accurate and quite recent. Not a doubt it happened and that is ludicrous.

Some of the stories people have told me regarding situations like that have been unreal. You would absolutely crawl into a hole and cringe at the statements people have made to me regarding their opinion and viewpoint of these activities. I'm not going to throw any mud you way Scott, you pull it to yourself like the eye of a hurricane.

So I wish you well my friend and I hope you are prosperous.

[Johnny P]

We are seeing more and more bogus guns show up on the internet forums. Some just have a fresh refinish taken back down to an acceptable level, but others even have bogus serial numbers. It's a shame that our hobby has attracted the snake oil salesmen that will do anything to sell another gun. The late Bill Adair told of a Model 1911 that was brought to him without a serial number, but the owner had conjured up the serial number and had Bill apply it to the receiver.

Build it and someone will buy it.

[Tommy2guns]

Hey JP,

No doubt there are a lot of examples out in the market that are bogus and misrepresented. I think that educating yourself or each other is the best defense against being taken.

I didn't know Bill Adair and since he has passed on I would not make any judgements on his work or alleged misdeeds. I see a lot of guns online that are contributed to him, to Tommy Haas as well as David B. In California. Whether or not they are from any of these guys they get that reputation hooked to them and they become near worthless to most.

I have been in touch with a couple of collectors from Ohio that I have known for years. They have both been members in the association in Ohio for years and know Chuck Clawson from over the years.

They are reporting that Chuck has pretty much disbanded his collection in whole as most here know already. When he did this what happened to his stationary and his embossing seal for his authentication letters?

It was stated to me that a couple of 1911s as well as some Norwegian 1911s, some Polish Radoms and some Springfield and M1s are popping up in the area with letters written by Clawson with what appears to be a blind stab at his signature and his embossed seal.

I think that type of thing causes more worry in the market then it can stand. Having a Clawson letter may not be as valuable to a collector as it once was if this pans out to be true. It would be like someone having a ream of the original Colt Archives stationary and their seal.

I see damn near perfect reproductions of all of the early ColtPistol boxes that with a little wear and tear they look completely authentic.

How long will it be before someone has to step forward and provide a authentication service for authentication letters?

What next?

[Johnny P]

Best to worry about the bogus pistols out there rather than a letter as the pistols will speak for themselves. Just having a pistol or rifle from someone's collection doesn't mean that much to me, but having one pictured in a book would.

Fake boxes are cheap and easy to detect if you know anything about the original boxes, but bogus pistols are not always that easy to detect, and are not cheap.

Mr. Clawson did a remarkable job of compiling information from his own research as well as the help of many other collectors in his ground breaking book published in 1991. Since that time new information has come to light, and as with anyone else writing such an all encompassing book, he didn't get everything right.

[Tommy2guns]

Oh I know and completely agree with you 100%. Unless a gun was in Patton's hand shooting at Japanese Zeros from his back deck and can be proven, any old gun from celebrity x doesn't impress me much either.

I think the issue with the letters are more concerning if presented with a well executed scam. On their own I don't put much stock in them. A factory Colt letter means little unless the gun or it's history are remarkable in some way like a Sheriff Model Single Action or a gun shipped to the Texas Rangers, etc...I never order the letters from Colt unless I believe that a gun is remarkable in some way.

As for bogus firearms, I'm no expert but I think common sense can carry you a long way in looking at an item closer and for what it is. I'm sure I have bought a bad piece some where along the way but didn't know it. I have read statements about completely undetectable forgeries out there and I wonder, if they are undetectable how do you know they are forgeries?

I have met Chuck several times and find him to be a hell of a man. Chuck would rather not tell you something as to tell you a lie or something just to make you feel better about your gun. I think he is as straight as they come. Between his book and several others I have learned a lot and gotten a good grasp on the nuances of the many different 1911s out there. One thing I remember asking him and heard several others had done the same was about errors I n the book. I got the same answer about nothing being 100% and he knew it.

I get the Smith and Wesson collectors guide every time they are released. The funniest thing I found about them a couple of years back was getting this big, brand new book and then immediately after receiving the corrections and omissions that were detected shortly after publication. So I can certainly forgive any author for not being 100% perfect.


I wish he would re-release the book in new form such as in disc and reprint the paperback version again but he said that is never gonna happen. He said he was done with publishing the book.

[Scott Gahimer]

Well obviously you think I am referring to you and or your website or you wouldn't have written this long winded defense of your activities...

No, I knew you weren't talking about me or my site. But because you failed to identify who you were talking about, I simply made sure others knew it wasn't me and commented on one"licensed appraiser" and a couple other statements you made which I didn't understand how they played into the discussion. Just contributing to the discussion...

BTW, as of ca. April this year, Chuck still had his hand stamp. Didn't see it then, but he went upstairs and stamped his seal on a letter for a pistol I'd just purchased from him then.

[Tommy2guns]

Scott,
As noted in the conversation regarding Chuck Clawson's embossing stamp, I didn't refer to you or anyone in particular. It was a conversation that was simply observing a possible situation I had been told about. If I ran across something fishy I would go straight to Chuck and get his verification on the item in question. I'm sure it won't be too long before an "expert" pops up and offers a service to authenticate a letter on Chuck authenticating an item.

I pray that Chuck is with us for a long long time so the public doesn't have to fall victim to some idiot with no credentials on handwriting analysis come forward and charge $2000 to verify a letter that they probably wrote themselves and put into the market. We will just have to wait and see. It is kinda like a mortician/undertaker murdering people to increase the amount of business they get.

It is funny to me how some experts run down another person's items with every negative comment they can muster to turn around and self promote their own items and "expertise". It is probably the worst style of business model there is out there and we see it all the time.

I think most every gun collector out there has seen this time and time again and probably have been on the loosing end of it at one time or another. Most people will move along and not make an issue out of it but I bet they won't forget about the who and what.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in denial.....

[gbethu]

"I think most every gun collector out there has seen this time and time again and probably have been on the loosing end of it at one time or another. Most people will move along and not make an issue out of it but I bet they won't forget about the who and what."

Tommy, truer words were never spoken.

[stan4]

Tommy, gbethu,

"It is funny to me how some experts run down another person's items with every negative comment they can muster to turn around and self promote their own items and "expertise". It is probably the worst style of business model there is out there and we see it all the time."

That is how we select the outstanding individuals that represent us in society . Sadly, it is done---because it works.

Is reality generally recognized, or is what is individually perceived substituted for reality? (And, who gets to tag reality?):)

[Tommy2guns]

Maybe Stan, maybe....

Really not working that great in D.C. though.......

[Johnny P]

Maybe we could change the name of this forum to the Thoroughly Ambiguous Innuendo Forum, and start one called the 1911/1911A1/Service Pistols Forum and talk about guns......?

[gbethu]

I think JP, that they are discussing dick heads who use these and other forums to generate income. Not just collectors interested in 1911s. I am not a dealer, so I don't have an agenda. I don't think you do either. They are just being polite and discussing why some participants who use these discussions to denigrate others to enhance their own business. Not everyone is as straight forward as you are. Wish they were.

[Johnny P]

Actually I can read and understand the forum without having it explained to me, thank you. If $2000 is too much for someone else to spend on having a Singer authenticated, what business is that of anyone else, and what right does anyone else have to bitch about it?

[gbethu]

Well, I might agree it's none of their business but certainly it's everybody's right to bitch about anything they please........ Like reading the New York Times editorial page. Happens everywhere and all the time.

[Johnny P]

This isn't the New York Times, and why screw up this board if bitching is the only reason someone comes here. I believe the worth of this board is measured in how professionally questions are answered and discussions are carried on, not on the presumption that everyone has the right to bitch as much as they want about something no one else knows anything about.

[Jer]

Well Gents, I must say freedom is not free, but speech is.

[gbethu]

Well, I'm gonna let JP have the last word.....OK JP, you win.

[Tommy2guns]

Gentlemen,

I agree that it is any free person in our society's right to charge what he thinks his or her service or product is valued at. It is also anyone's right to completely overpay for the same. I don't know what it is worth for an inspection and appraisal for a Singer but JP there is more to this story than this Singer appraisal.

I have watched and been a part of the "victim's" side of what I would call criminal but most would probably just call something "bad business" on the "experts" behalf.

About 3 years ago I had a neighbor that I did not know that well come to me with a situation as he knew from other neighbors that I was a gun collector. Months before this meeting his brother had died and there were four or five guns left in his estate, willed to my neighbor.

Most were common fodder we all see as average old WW2 wheel guns but one was a three digit Colt 1911 US Army Model. He had his digital camera with him and as I went thru the scroll of photos I see this really top condition 1911 with what appeared to be all correct early parts. Photos of the magazine, grips, etc... All in great digital detail. I told him I would be better equipped at an opinion if seen in person.

I went to his home on invitation to look at them and give him an opinion on value, legality of sale, etc... Once there I took a look at this same 1911, same serial number verified and asked him why he had changed the grips and popped the magazine out, also changed. In the end the mag catch and dimple screw lock were changed and the thumb safety. All if this was more obvious to him once I pointed out the scratches here and there that were not in the photos along with pitting and finish was half of that in the photos.

He produced this "condition report/ appraisal" sheet he had received back with the gun that he had sent off to some guy in Indiana to evaluate his gun. The report basically trashed the gun calling it a mixed parts gun and made him a $2500 offer / valuation for the pistol.

Once I showed him the different parts and questioning him about swapping out parts he quickly cleared my radar as the perpetrator as he was certainly NOT a gun guy and wouldn't turn a screw on any of them. So we gave this little liar a call a went back and forth about these parts for almost twenty minutes before the appraiser came up with the hypothesis that he must have had two guns apart at the same time and simply gotten them mixed up.

He asked that the gun be sent back and he would put the parts back on, of course he didn't want to pay the shipping either way. After my neighbor and I got hot and heavy about it and discussed law enforcement, "BATF" being brought in, the appraiser relented and they basically hung up mad.

The parts arrived two days later and I put the gun back together and corrected the issues. He threw the appraiser's parts in the garbage as he was mad and we never heard another word. He had still charged him $350 or there about to try and screw him over in a very deceitful way. If my neighbor had not taken these great detailed photos before hand then this theft and deception would have gone unchecked and undetected.

If anyone thinks that is an honest mistake, think about the fact that this person is an "expert" and is always right!

No doubt it happened and no doubt it was just down right crooked.

I don't have any issue with an honest person making a living and sharing his expertise with others willing to pay him for it but integrity has to be in place.

I couldn't care less about this guy or his business, I just want to puke when I read his self serving opinions and the subtle way he says these forums are not the place for business and then posts his website info with a nudge to the reader.

This may not the best place to air this information and I apologize to anyone who feels this is harming the hobby of gun collecting and I am done venting this information. The truth will find him out, it always does.

[gfguns]

This isn't the New York Times, and why screw up this board if bitching is the only reason someone comes here. I believe the worth of this board is measured in how professionally questions are answered and discussions are carried on, not on the presumption that everyone has the right to bitch as much as they want about something no one else knows anything about.

I agree with JP. Take your fight/attack some place more appropriate like the BBB, law enforcement, or out to the parking lot.

[Tommy2guns]

I have said my piece or peace, whichever way you would have it.

[ben reyes]

Tommy2guns, thanks for sharing your story. I believe it belongs here.

“Real integrity is doing the right thing, knowing that nobody’s going to know whether you did it or not.” Oprah Winfrey.

[Tommy2guns]

Thank you Ben. So now it is you, me and Oprah takes on the world! I love it. With your brains, my good looks and
Oprah's money we may have a chance....
T2G

[ignats]

I agree with JP. Take your fight/attack some place more appropriate like the BBB, law enforcement, or out to the parking lot.

Yep, me too enough already. I have seen far too many boards ruined with this sort of nonsense.

[Scott Gahimer]

Anyone foolish enough to believe any of that story has anything to do with me or any inspection I've done isn't worth worrying about. I don't even believe the story is true. I also think The Amazing Gordo and Tommy are one on the same. It's kinda sad to think this is all someone, supposedly so rich and impotent, has to do. But he has shown a lot of guns with problems, and I've been one of the persons to point out the fakes. Sour grapes and sh*t for brains often does lead to such behavior in children and idiots.

All I will say is Tommy/Gordo's "story" has NOTHING to do with me. If you believe it's true or has anything to do with me, I feel sorry for you. Life is hard enough without being that foolish.

[Tommy2guns]

Gentlemen,

I am done with this thread and while I understand and agree with you that sometimes this stuff may get out of hand let me ask you this.

We all know of well known or more well known stories that have gone on for a long time, years and years in fact about dubious dealers and fakers, thieves, etc... I see comments alluding to "David B. From California", some guys who monkey with 1911s, Lugers, Garands, and so on. We have all heard of some of these guys and we are better informed and better prepared to battle with them because of a known history of fraud and crooked behavior.

How do any of us know about their activities and their crooked deeds? From people they have screwed over time and time again who started talking about them and calling them out. It took years for word to travel in the days before the internet and it meant the bad guy had a lot of time and a lot of bogus and crooked deals chalked up by the time they were exposed.

I'm not saying that this reaches that level and I'm not saying every transaction is a bad one but if you got screwed over or taken advantage of, or someone you thought well of, a family member maybe falls victim to a crook wouldn't you tell everyone to look out for the offender? Wouldn't you be more pissed off if this happened to you or someone you cared about only to have other people come forward after the fact and go " Oh yeah that guy burned me etc...blah blah blah...." ?

I'm done with this thread as I said but before you throw me on the fire, please think about that narrative.

And Scott, I'm familiar with Gordon and some of the animosity between you two. We are not the same person, we are not in contact other than the occasional back and forth here in this forum. I could care less about that history between you two and this thread of commentary was not initiated by him or anything to do with him.

You believe what ever you need to Scott to sleep at night. I could care less. You are a liar and a thief my friend. I know a lot more about you than I have shared here, a lot more. I have talked to people at gun shows all through the country and met dealers and collectors alike that are all quite familiar with you Scott. You think that they are your friend because you think they beg for your attention and opinion on their items. They absolutely think you are a complete jackaxx and a joke. Guys right here on this forum that you think are your cheerleaders turn around and send private emails hailing these truths that are revealed.

You continue all these denials Scott, people know better.

[Johnny P]

Gordon,

There is no individual winning or losing here. The forum is always the big loser.

JP

[stan4]

Gordon,

There is no individual winning or losing here. The forum is always the big loser.

JP


JP,

Please allow me to respectfully disagree!:) There may be many winning with this discussion;---all the new individuals interested in Model O Colts, especially those interested in collecting. There are collectors and businesses with outstanding reputations and a few with not so good. How should the novice learn and who should decide? Please, all, keep in mind;---no human is perfect. Hopefully there are no losers; can't count ones that are already lost,---if there are any.

Hopefully, the forum is not a loser! Maybe it will become more respectful, and more educational?

Best Regards,

[Scott Gahimer]

Stan:

This is the Internet and you know everything you read, especially mud slung by faceless, screen names on the Internet is true...right? :)

While most everyone has some detractors, nobody likes it...even me. But I am confident most people are bright enough to figure things out. I don't hide behind fake screen names, nor do I make unsupported accusations. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know being accused by someone without and any details, actual evidence, firsthand accounts doesn't support the accusations or prove anything. The Amazing Gordo is one of my detractors, and I'm sure there are others. Nobody likes to hear my opinion if it is not favorable about the pistol in question. But of the hundreds of inspections I've done, none were anything like the "story" told by my other detractor here.

Tommy showed up on this board for the first time defending Gordo with his bogus EXP 8, which was in fact an illegally altered Remington Rand. Just read all Gordo and T2G's posts in this thread. Just minutes apart, one slapping the other on the back, the other keeping the thread going, etc. People can and do believe what they want. Why would anyone choose to believe something negative, without any evidence? Petty jealousy? Sour grapes? Who knows?

I've been on this forum about 15 +/- years and have pissed multiple people off telling them I didn't think their gun was right. I've probably made a lot more people happy, telling them I thought they had a good one. Such is life.

Proving something that didn't happen didn't happen is a tough job. That's why the law requires those making charges to prove their case. I'm convinced most people who read the crap detractors say are bright enough to consider the source and not to believe everything they hear or see...especially on the Internet. When making a decision about hiring someone to authenticate anything, I think most are bright enough to do their own homework and/or ask for references.

So, like most other people I know, I'll just consider the source and go from there. Unfounded accusations from detractors doesn't go very far with me.

[Johnny P]

JP,

Please allow me to respectfully disagree!:) There may be many winning with this discussion;---all the new individuals interested in Model O Colts, especially those interested in collecting. There are collectors and businesses with outstanding reputations and a few with not so good. How should the novice learn and who should decide? Please, all, keep in mind;---no human is perfect. Hopefully there are no losers; can't count ones that are already lost,---if there are any.

Hopefully, the forum is not a loser! Maybe it will become more respectful, and more educational?

Best Regards,

Respectfully, has anyone been identified in all this? If you have someone that you would like to let all the new Model O collectors, and who here calls them O's, please let them know who it is and we can get back to discussing pistols.

JP

[stan4]

What is this thread all about? Singer grip Comparison?

Obviously not. There seems to be a lot more going on than most are aware of??

"Hopefully, the forum is not a loser! Maybe it will become more respectful, and more educational?"!!

Best Regards,

[stan4]

"and who here calls them O's" ?

I do. It is an easy way to include Military and Commercial .45 ACP, along with the Supers , Aces, and Service Model Aces. Please forgive me if I have offended anyone!:)

Yes, l hope to get back to discussing pistols.

Best Regards

[Tommy2guns]

Gentleman,

Stan4 you are right and I am abandoning the ship on this thread as I realize there is just no winning with Scott or his position on anything and no amount of bantering back and forth is gonna to change Scott or his viewpoint.

T2Gs....

[gbethu]

[QUOTE=Scott Gahimer;385044]Stan:

This is the Internet and you know everything you read, especially mud slung by faceless, screen names on the Internet is true...right? :)
The Amazing Gordo is one of my detractors, and I'm sure there are others. Nobody likes to hear my opinion if it is not favorable about the pistol in question.






Scott, your current detractor is talking about some deal that happened way before I became a gun collector barely 18 months ago. Take the issue up with him. I have never hidden my name or my account of what has come between us.
I never even met you until you introduced yourself at the January 2014 Morphy's auction in Pa A month previously, I had purchased a Navy1911 from you for $20,000 over the phone. I was happy with it.

You told me you had just recently visited Chuck Clawson where, I believe you learned he had sold me serial number 39, a pistol you and many others always wanted. He had indicated to me that he didn't want to sell it to you or any other dealer who might flip it to make a profit. That is what he told me. It's not my opinion. He set the price and I agreed.


Some weeks later you told Chuck you would pay $30,000 more for his Singer than the price he had agreed to sell it to me. We had already reached an agreement at the price he offered it to me. You then called me asking for a payment of $20,000 to "go away". You mentioned you had a buyer in Virginia who would pay you $200,000 so you felt I was preventing you from this profit of $20.000. I then called Chuck and told him of your sleazy demand and he told me to wire him the money per our original deal. He shipped the Singer to me the next day.

Since I am not anywhere nearly as knowledgeable as you are about the M1911, I bought and posted photos of two pistols on this forum. An NAA 1911 #5 used in Clawson's reference books proved to have been altered and refinished. Chuck confirmed this and I received a refund from the 40+ year collector who sold it to me. The other was an altered 1911 purported to be a EXP US&S. I initially thought you were just demeaning the gun to be spiteful. I was wrong . You correctly identified it as a fake. I returned it for a full refund. The total cost for both pistols was $42,000. Not earth shattering compared to the very top prices for some 1911s and I received full refunds.
That's it. That is our whole history.

My only issue with you is your attempt to shake me down for $20,000. You said call it a "finder's fee" but it was no more than an attempt to squeeze money from a deal you couldn't consummate. It certainly showed me your lack of ethics or character.
We don't have any issues except your heartburn from being exposed as an unethical person.
I don't sell guns or advice . You are not a competitor nor do you have any influence on me. You don't own any pistols I want nor do you have any unique knowledge I can't find from someone more trustworthy. These recent posts from a long ago deal indicate you haven't changed much.

As I told you before , it's OK with me for you to continue to criticize my lack of expertise on the M1911. It's true you will always know much more than I do about this hobby. You, on the other hand will always suffer from your lack of honesty and ethical business behavior. There my reputation will always far exceed your own.
I suggest we quit this public tiff and go our own way. I don't gain from your loss of reputation and you really don't need another collector out there maligning your business.

[Scott Gahimer]

Gentleman, Stan4 you are right and I am abandoning the ship on this thread as I realize there is just no winning with Scott or his position on anything and no amount of bantering back and forth is gonna to change Scott or his viewpoint. T2Gs....

What? You're still here? You said you were bailing out back in post 35. And you're still here? I think you are confused, too. It wasn't Stan4 who suggested there is no winning. Johnny Peppers is who said there are no winners...and that comment was directed specifically to Gordon. And now, you are the personality who replies and acknowledges there is no winning. Hmm? Anyone with multiple personalities and screen names is bound to get them mixed up, eventually.

And why would you want to exit the thread now? You started slinging all the mud with the false innuendos (aimed at me) about $2000 inspection rates and trying to discredit me. That didn't work because it wasn't true and there wasn't even any basis for the discussion...except that you just wanted to try to smear me. When that didn't work, then you concocted the preposterous story about your neighbor sending me a 3-digit 1911. Why didn't you just say it was M1911 No. 1? That would have been just as believable. You say I switched parts, returned the gun and charged the guy $350. Really? where did you get that amount? Maybe from my web site www.m1911info.com. I told you I had all my prices published on my site when I responded to your BS $2000 Singer story. So, you thought you'd be smart and use a more believable price this time. Well, that information is common knowledge. Anyone who visits my web site can read that in the published prices.

I don't think you're very smart...maybe sh*t for brains smart, but that's about it. Every firearm shipped for inspection to and from me goes through an 01 dealer on my end. Regardless of how a pistol is shipped to us, from an individual or a dealer, it goes through our local shop. There are records of EVERY gun received and shipped. There are even form 4473s for every pistol I take possession of to do an inspection. There are shipping records and tracking numbers for every shipment. Every firearm our shop receives for me for inspection is photographed before and after the inspection is completed, and prior to returning the pistol to the licensed recipient on the other end.

Anyone ordering an inspection must be a paid Subscriber to my web site and agree to the Terms of Use. You become a Subscriber through PayPal. I have all the web site records and PayPal records. I typically receive pre-payment for inspections via PayPal, but often allow Subscribers to ship pistols without sending any pre-payment. I have nothing to risk in doing so, and this allows me to receive the pistol and immediately tell them what they have. If a pistol is not original or correct, they are told at that time, and I never recommend anyone to spend good money having an inspection written for a pistol that isn't worth it. So, your absurd story doesn't even make any sense.

There is so much evidence involved with any inspection I do, and yet you have failed to produce even a shred. I know I did not inspect a 3-digit Colt and swap parts for anyone, so I also know there is no evidence which would actually suggest otherwise. I'm not talking about bogus, altered or faked images of anything on the Internet, but evidence that stands up to scrutiny and can be verified...such as shipping records, etc.

You called me a liar and a thief. I hope, for your sake, you are smarter than I think...but probably not. People who are smarter than that wouldn't do such things. The good news is people who do such things online can be found and held accountable because everything you do online leaves little bits of evidence that ultimately point right back to you. Records are available.

You aren't my first detractor and you won't be my last. A few years ago, on this same board, I had one who liked to spoof e-mail addresses and make posts to make others think it was me. But, eventually, he got sloppy and was revealed when IP addresses were displayed on the board.

So I invite you to stay on board and keep posting. The more the better. You're digging your own hole.

[gbethu]

Well Scott check IP addresses. Mine is in Houston, Texas. Maybe you're confused but I am not the person who accused you of swapping parts. I don't need a false name. I don't have any issues with you anymore other than the one I stated in my post. get over it. I have.

[Scott Gahimer]

Gordon:

Don't go trying to make me feel sorry for you...:) You do not not play the "victim" vet well. You are a detractor of mine and you always will be. I accept that, just as you have your version of our "history" and I have mine. I know what happened and you do, too. I don't expect to ever agree with you about what happened. And I don't really care to re-hash it all over again. You'll always tell things from your end, and I'll do the same. But I won't do it here online.

I appreciate you acknowledging you were wrong about my intent for posting on the EXP 8 thread. Regardless of what I think of anyone, I won't ever post or say anything about a pistol that I know is not true. It serves no purpose for me to be wrong, or to have anyone think I form my opinions based on spite. I told you EXP 8 was a fake because it was, and the people who read this site deserved to know. And just like I contacted you once before offline to tell you I'd read a forum and saw where you'd purchased another fake, I posted here and suggested you try to return the pistol. That's when all hell broke out and you accused me of posting with an ulterior motive. That's when you became a detractor. You slung mud then and have continued doing so.

I have no problem working with people who are ignorant, inexperienced and/or new to 1911 collecting. I do have a problem with those types of people, who rather than listening and learning, engage in a effort to smear someone's character. And while most reasonably intelligent people can recognize a smear and sour grapes from a detractor, it still irritates me and others who read these boards to learn for someone to spread lies, make ridiculous unfounded accusations, attach character, etc.

In the future, I hope you come to realize I have NEVER said anything about any of your pistols that I didn't believe was totally accurate. I have personally inspected some of them and have seen all the photos you've posted online of others. I am reasonably sharp on these pistols. If I have suggested there is something wrong with a pistol, you might perhaps consider I am again simply telling you the truth so you and others on these boards can learn. I have no motive to EVER furnish inaccurate information about any pistol.

[gbethu]

Scott,thank you. I said I was wrong to question your motives about the EXP. You were correct about that as you were about the North American. You certainly know the M1911 better than I or most people ever will. I wouldn't argue with you about the merits of any M1911.
gordon bethune

[Chaz]

I cannot believe I read the whole thing!

[lyman]

I cannot believe I read the whole thing!+1,

like an afternoon edition of judge judy or worse,,,

[Johnny P]

You only have yourself to blame.

[Rob Greer]

You only have yourself to blame.

+1

Misery is optional...