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mp40man
09-08-2014, 01:58
Hey folks. I picked this up over twenty years ago. Had to replace the grips with originals from Sarco and lighten the trigger a bit.. all matching except mag which is numbered to another systems 27...very nice old shooter. Does any one have one of these and if so any opinions. I kinda look at them as a poor man's 1911A1.:usa2: Regards. Rich

usmc69
09-08-2014, 02:05
Looks good. Works doesn't?

mp40man
09-08-2014, 04:39
Looks good. Works doesn't? Yes sir it sure does. Center mass at 21 ft. with my reloads.:icon_salut: Thank you for your service. Best regards. Rich

Chaz
09-10-2014, 04:38
They are nice pistols. Mine was produced in 1948, and like yours all numbers match except for the magazine. It still has the original blued (black) finish and black plastic grips, and shoots very well; as well as any of my (other) Colts. And I have it on good authority this Sistema was Eva's personal handgun. Hehe

twh
09-14-2014, 07:18
Nice pistol but it is a Model 27 nothing to do with the US designation of 1911a1. The correct grips look like GI grips but are black as stated above.

can14
09-14-2014, 07:58
I have one in mint condition with three matching magazines. It was owned by a military guy from argentina

mp40man
09-15-2014, 03:37
Nice pistol but it is a Model 27 nothing to do with the US designation of 1911a1. The correct grips look like GI grips but are black as stated above. I understand it is not a 1911A1 service pistol and yes the grips are original GI...the original grips cracked so a replacement was in order. I believe parts will interchange with the 1911A1. Rich

usmc69
09-15-2014, 04:20
Nice pistol but it is a Model 27 nothing to do with the US designation of 1911a1. The correct grips look like GI grips but are black as stated above.

He never wrote that it was an M1911 or a M1911A1. Quite a few of the pistols talked about here are not either of those.


I understand it is not a 1911A1 service pistol and yes the grips are original GI...the original grips cracked so a replacement was in order. I believe parts will interchange with the 1911A1. Rich

Yes, the parts will interchange. That said, surplus parts are becoming harder to find. However, as long as you have a good frame you are good to go.

Oyaji
09-15-2014, 05:26
I've had several Argentine Sistema Model 1927 .45 autos (11.25mm) over the years. They were made for the Army (Ejercito), Navy (Armada), Air Force (Aeronautica), and National Police and are marked as such on the slide as such. They are quality pistols and every bit as good as the 1911s that were built here in the United States. Do not however, confuse these with the Argentine Ballester Molina .45 autos which are somewhat different.

A little historical data.....

http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/1911/mod1927%20arg%2045/arg%2045s%20history.htm

twh
09-16-2014, 09:42
You can check with Simpsons Ltd or Numrich for the original grip as I have seen them both places at various times if you are inclined to want to replace them. Just for clarification and not directed at the OP but USMC-69 you need to read the title of the post which states Colt Systema 27 1911-a1 so that was what I was referring to.

joem
09-18-2014, 05:39
I bought two of them. They function perfectly.

usmc69
09-22-2014, 12:04
Argentine Colts and Sistemas, 1914-1966 Part One

BACKGROUND

Argentina has been producing arms since the late 19th century and since that time has aimed toward achieving independence in the manufacture of military equipment. Between 1914 and 1950, 21,616 Colt 1911 and 1911A1 pistols were purchased from Colt by the Argentine Government. Between 1927 and 1966, another 112,494(*) 1911A1's, called "Sistema Colts," were produced in Argentina under license from Colt.

M1911's

In 1914, the Argentine military adopted the Colt M1911 as their standard military sidearm and contracted with Colt to supply these guns. Argentina took shipment of 2,151 of these weapons between 1914 and 1919. Among them were the following: 321 pistols received in 1914 marked MARINA ARGENTINA (Argentina Navy), S/N C6201 - C6400 and C11501 - C11621; 1000 received in 1916, S/N C20001- C21000; 400 received in 1919 within the S/N range of C86790 - C116594.
These pistols went through two different channels. The battleships that were being made in the USA for Argentina received the Navy pistols directly. Pistols delivered to Argentina went through the London Armoury Company.
The 1,000 pistols received in 1915 were marked with Argentine crests and property numbers 1 to 1,000 on the tops of the slides. These pistols were designated "Pistola Colt Modelo Argentino 1916.

THE 1927 CONTRACT

In 1923, Argentina adopted an armaments bill that would eliminate Argentine dependency on foreign arms. Under this bill, the Argentine Congress authorized appropriations for a military modernization program and prepared the infrastructure for a domestic arms industry. In accordance with the new law, an aircraft factory was established in 1927, a munitions factory in 1933, a small steel mill in 1934, and a small arms factory in 1936, all of which were managed by Argentine army officers.

In 1927, the Argentine Commission for Foreign Acquisitions negotiated a contract with Colt for the manufacture of M1911A1 .45 caliber self-loading pistols specially marked and serial numbered in a separate series, and secured a licensing agreement giving the Argentine government the right to manufacture these pistols.

The agreement specified: 1) that Colt would manufacture 10,000 Colt automatic pistols, caliber .45, “Ejercito Argentino Modelo 1927, for the Argentine Army; 2) that the complete knowledge base for future production of the pistols in Argentina, including drawings, manufacturing instructions, material specifications, tool requirements, etc., would be transferred to Argentine control; and 3) that Argentine technicians would be trained in manufacturing operations and inspection.

THE 1927 HARTFORD ARGENTINE ARMY MODELS

The 10,000 Hartford Colts made for Agentina prior to production of Sistemas were delivered from 1927 to 1933, serial 1-10,000." The production period was from July 28, 1927 to February 16, 1928. Serial numbers were stamped in Colt's italic numbers on top of the slides, under the mainspring housing, and (usually) on top of the barrel.

On the left side of the slide (the Colt logo is stamped behind these lines):
"COLT'S PT. F.A. MFG. CO. HARTFORD CT. USA"
"PATD APR. 20, 1897,SEPT. 9, 1902,DEC. 19, 1905,FEB. 14, 1911,AUG. 19, 1913."
On the right side of the slide is the Argentine Crest and:
"EJERCITO ARGENTINO"
"COLT CAL. 45 MOD. 1927"
“Ejercito Argentino” is the Argentine Army, but some of the Hartford's were issued to “Policia Maritima, Argentina's Shore Patrol.

SISTEMA COLTS

For production of Colt 1911A1's in Argentina, Colt engineers supervised the set-up of the production equipment, which was acquired from the Fritz Werner company in Germany, a maker of arms-manufacturing machinery still in business today.

From 1927 to 1942, 14,000 Sistema pistols (from Sistema Colt, indicating made on the Colt system (machinery) were produced at the Esteban de Luca Arsenal in Buenos Aires, S/N's 10,001 24,000(*), the serial numbers continuing from the Hartford run.

In 1941, after a decade of planning, Argentines established a large and diversified military-industrial complex under the overall supervision of the Direccion General de Fabricaciones Militares (D.G.F.M.), the Military Manufacturing Agency. Similar to the US Ordnance Department, the agency was run by the military and military officers managed the manufacturing plants. Among other products, this agency would eventually, through contractual agreements, oversee the production of identical copies of Colt's M1911-A1, Browning's Hi Power, and FN's FAL rifle.

In 1945, after construction of the state-owned Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles (F.M.A.P.), Small Arms Factory in Rosario, Santa Fe (250 miles from Buenos Aires), assembly of Sistemas was transferred to the new plant and another 88,494 pistols were produced through 1966. This factory was named for Domingo Matheu, a 19th century military official who was active in the early development of the nation's arms industry.

Today FMAP manufactures a wide range of small arms and ammunition and is known in the industry as “FM.” The Rosario arsenal closed in 1991 and much of its production was transferred to FMAP's Fray Luis Beltran arsenal, about 15 miles from Rosario.

Sistema Colts were manufactured in accordance with Colt's 1927 drawings. They were identical to US military M1911-A1 pistols except for 6 minor cosmetic differences, and parts were interchangeable.

The differences were: a) the markings, b) the grips, c) a black oxide bluing, d) a sharp edge on the rear of the hammer, e) a sharp edge on the heel of the grip safety, f) indented checkering on the mainspring housing.

The pistols were made for the Argentine Army, Navy, Air Force, government bureaus, police, commercial sales, and export. They were normally serial numbered a) on the right side of the receiver, b) on the grip frame under the mainspring housing, c) on the top and right side of the slide, d) on the top of the chamber, and e) the bottom of the magazine.

In most cases, the presence of an Argentine crest on the pistol indicates government issue; pistols without crests were made for police, non-national government agencies, commercial sales, and export. Also in most cases, barrels on pistols issued to the Army had blued chambers, but the chambers on Navy, police, and commercial barrels were milled after being blued, which resulted in a bright unfinished surface comparable to Colt commercial barrels. Serial numbers were stamped on the barrels prior to bluing, and therefore, bluing remained inside the numbers.

All Sistemas were originally finished in black oxide, except a few that were specially ordered for the Navy. Many were later re-finished, most Navy pistols in parkerization. Early guns had checkered walnut stocks; later had black or brown hard rubber or plastic.

Sistemas from the early 50's without an Argentine crest, marked Gendarmeria Nacional” were originally made for the U.S. Army's use in the Korean War. They were never delivered. They were re-stamped and issued to the Gendarmaria, Argentina's border patrol.

6,226 Sistemas were made for the Argentine Navy (known through the years as Marina Argentina, Armada Argentina, Armada Nacional, and Marina de Guerra ), and 4,285 for the Argentine Air Force (Aeronautica Argentina).

Up to the 1960's, Sistema Colt pistols bear the markings, on the left sides of the slides:
D.G.F.M. - (F.M.A.P.)
The right side of the slide is marked:
Sist. Colt Cal. 11.25mm Mod. 1927

Slide markings changed in the 1960's through to the last pistols produced. On the left sides of the slides:
Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles “ Rosario (with a circled FM)
Sistema Colt Cal. 11.25mm Industria Argentina
Serial numbers remained stamped on the right sides of the slides.

Sistema Colts were made from forged steel and will be just as long-lived and reliable as their Hartford counterparts. The German, British, and Swedish steel used in their manufacture was the best available. They are regarded as 100% Colt pistols, "Fully USGI," according to one opinion, "in fit, finish, form, and function." The myth that some Sistemas were made from the Graf Spee, a German warship scuttled at Argentina during World War II, is just that a myth.

At production, it was expected that Sistema barrels would withstand 15,000 rounds. The sights were set for a 6 o'clock hold. The Argentine military used Sistemas during the Falkland/Malvinas War in 1982.

DIMENSIONS
Mechanism Type: Recoil Operated Semi-automatic
Caliber: 11.25mm/.45
Weight: 39 ounces
Barrel Length: 5 inches
Overall Length: 8.62 inches
Magazine Capacity: 7 rounds
Sights: Blade front, V notch rear drift, adjustable for windage
Rifling: 4 grooves, .005 inches deep, .165 inches wide. Right twist, one turn in 9.84 inches

Numbers Produced at FMAP Rosario and Serial #’s, 1945-1966
1945 - 6,000 - #24,001 - #30,000
1946 - 7,628 - #30,001 - #37,628
1947 - 5,000 - #37,629 - #42,628
1948 - 7,000 - #42,629 - #49,628
1949 - 5,000 - #49,629 - #54,628
1950 - 8,000 - #54,629 - #62,628
1951 - 8,011 - #62,629 - #70,639
1952 - 7,016 - #70,640 - #77,655
1953 - 2,500 - #77,656 - #80,155
1954 - 5,000 - #80,156 - #85,155
1955 - 2,500 - #85,156 - #87,655
1956 - 2,500 - #87,656 - #90,155
1957 - 5,626 - #90,156 - #95,781
1958 - 5,547 - #95,782 - #101,328
1959 - 5,000 - #101,329 - #106,328
1960 - 2,066 - #106,329 - #108,394
1961 - 1,000 - #108,395 - #109,394
1962 - 0
1963 - 600 - #109395 - #109,994
1964 - 750 - #109,995 - #110,744
1965 - 1,250 - #110,745 - #111,994
1966 - 500 - #111,995 - #112,494

(SEE PART TWO)
Argentine Colts and Sistemas, 1914-1966, Part Two

AGENCY SLIDE MARKINGS ON SISTEMA COLTS:

(No markings); (Argentine crest with no agency); Ejercito Argentino (Army); I.P.(?); Aeronautica Argentina (Air Force); Marina de Guerra, Armada Nacional, Armada Argentina, Marina Argentina (Navy, in various periods); Gendarmeria Nacional (Border Patrol); Ministerio Del Interior Policia De Los Territorios Nacional; Policia De La Provencia De Buenos Aires; Policia De La Provencia De Santa Fe; C.F.S. (Federal Internal Security).

HARTFORD BUENOS AIRES POLICE MODELS

A batch of 5,320 Hartford Colts were made in 1933 and issued to the Buenos Aires Police Department, and are known as the “Policia de la Capital” pistols. The first order was placed that year through a private arms dealer. Police pistols show the fit and finish typical of pre-war Colts, and are blued with commercial markings. The police pistols are serial numbered within the C165000 through C171000 range.

The pistols have Colt markings, with POLICIA DE LA CAPITAL and /or POLICIA FEDERAL on the slides. On the right sides of the frames is marked, Government Model over the serial numbers. The tops of the slides are marked with property numbers, 1 - 5,320.

HARTFORD COLT COMMERCIAL MODELS

From 1914 through 1941, excluding the 10,000 pistols from the 1927 contract, Argentina purchased 11,616 pistols from Colt and they bear various slide markings: 1,420 pistols for the army; 2,290 pistols for the navy; and 6,183 pistols for federal police departments. A total of 1,723 other Colt pistols were also purchased, most of which were likely for provincial police departments. These pistols were in the Colt commercial serial number range.

REFERENCE BOOKS

http://coolgunsite.com/collectors_guide.htm Scroll down moderator Ty Moore’s page for related reference books. Also, Military Pistols of Argentina (Self Published, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1994), by Alex Gherovici. This volume can be purchased by writing to the author at:
Alex Gherovici
P.O. Box 58506
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102

(*) Sistema production numbers do not seem to be universally accepted.

It was specified in the 1927 agreement, beginning with the 10,000 Hartford Colts, that the Argentine pistols would be separately serial numbered from Colt's regular production. Those pistols were numbered 1 - 10,000.

Some maintain that the numbering continued, beginning with 10,001, and that production of Sistemas 10,001 through 24,000 took place 1927 through 1942 at the Estaban de Luca arsenal.

According to one source, “8,000 (Sistemas) were made in the late 1920's, followed by a batch of 30,000 in the 1930's to early 1940's.

What is universally accepted is that, at the end of WWII, after the opening of FMAP Rosario, production of Sistemas 24,001 through 112,494 took place through 1966, for a total of 88,494 pistols produced at Rosario. Some steadfastly maintain that Sistema production begins and ends at Rosario.

But the assertion of production 1927 - 1942 makes sense. And why would serial numbering begin at Rosario with 24,001? No guns had been produced there before; it had just opened. And why would the 1927 contract not produce a single gun for 18 years?

One answer holds that the 10,000 1927 Hartford Colts fulfilled Argentina’s needs for the next 18 years. But Rosario averaged over 4,000 pistols per year for 22 years and, during that time, Argentina continued to buy Hartford Colts.

The fact is that 88,494 Sistemas were made at Rosario, and those are the Sistemas turning up in today's marketplace. But assuming 1927-1942 production anywhere else, what happened to those 14,000 pistols? There are plenty of other pistols still around from that era. Where are the early Sistemas?

KeithNyst
09-22-2014, 04:21
Just fired mine a couple of weeks ago at 15 yards. Shoots a well as any USGI 1911A1 I've fired, maybe better.
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy263/KeithNyst/46%20Argentine%20Sistema/Sistima15yd10rdunsupported.jpg

joem
09-23-2014, 04:53
Excellent post USMC69. I'll have to get mine out and check the S/N's.