So the new Krag came today

[Mark Daiute]

That was fun. New Krag arrived today. needs a magazine cut-off and the binding screw as mentioned earlier but all in all this is a fine rifle, an honest rifle, in good shape but a hundred and sixteen years worth of dings.

Brilliant phrase, that," New Krag".

Now the question for the likes of 5 or Dick,

What is known about replacement stocks, anything? The stock on my rifle has a perfectly fine Circled P but is without the usual cartouche. Where the cartouche would be there is a faint capital C.

There is a "Bubling" to the stock surface, in some place, like some BLO got hot maybe and the surface of some of the stock may have been scuffed a little with a very very fine sand paper.

Straight turpentine did not remove the bubbling. I'll got to denatured alcohol next.

Pictures when I put it back together.

Mark

[psteinmayer]

Can't wait to see em Mark!

[Dan Shapiro]

If the alcohol doesn't remove the bubbling, try acetone. If the acceptance cartouche was lightly struck to begin with, it's possible it faded over time.

[Mark Daiute]

Perhaps I should clarify my querry for Dick and Mr. Farmer.

Generally it seems that gun owners allay a firearm's shortcomings to things like "it's and arsenal rebuild" or "that was done at the armory". This is especially true for stocks that have been sanded or that don't have a cartouche.

When were stocks replaced and where? at the post? at the arsenal? Did they receive the circled P at that time? Not at all? Circled P but no cartouche?

[Dick Hosmer]

I am quite clear on what was at least supposed to happen on new production. The circle-P was the 5-round functioning proof, and the cartouche was applied shortly after. The real meaning of the JSA/date stamp was to indicate that the arm had passed all required processes and tests, and had been accepted into ordnance stores. That system had been in place since at least 1877 (OM22) likely through the entire .45-70 period, if not longer.

The entire (not just stocks) replacement/repair/refinishing/upgrading situation is obviously quite fluid and subject to much speculation and interpretation. I'm sure there were regulations, or at least guidelines, as to certain marks to be applied under such-and-such circumstances. I am equally sure that they were not always followed. The best situation is a dated cartouche which "matches", within reason, the estimated date of production of the receiver. Clearly, the cartouche must not predate the receiver - how much later it may be is up to individual preference. It is a fact that stocks with P and nothing else do exist, though they defy logic. Stocks are also found with just the little initials, or a number, behind the trigger guard.

Anything "downstream" from the best situation (above) will cause a decrease in collector value.

My views only - cannot speak for Joe (every time I have tried in the past, it has gotten me into trouble!)

[Mark Daiute]

Thank you, Disk.

[5MadFarmers]

Thank you, Disk.

Disk?

Long pointless story that, as always, loops back.

After Basic the young airman went to technical training. Thence to his first duty station. One must have a photo ID pass to get around. Photo ID pass with numbers down both sides. Those not blacked out are areas one can be in without escort. Each number corresponds to an area. With the form for his ID filled out the young airman proceeded to the Security Police building. The Technical Sergeant there looked at the form and balked. He called the Captain. The Captain wasn't amused. He called the Base Commander. "We have an airman here with the form filled out and signed. The form designates that he's to get access to all areas." The Base Commander was not amused. "No, send him back and have them limit it."

Being a young Airman and knowing the Base Commander, a full Colonel, was not amused the Airman was not a happy camper. Back to his work location he went. "They said no." The Technical Sergeant there was not amused. The Lieutenant Colonel was called. "They denied his access." The Lieutenant Colonel was not amused. He called the Director of Operations (DO). "We have Airman Farmer, the new Controller, here. Colonel Steadman denied his access." Colonel Cash (DO) was not amused. He came over and had one of the duty controllers get the Base Commander on the phone. With the speaker on for all to hear. Promptly tore into him something ugly. "Go back and have them give you your pass."

Welcome to the USAF.

The Base Commander commanded the base. The Wing Commander commanded the Wing. The Wing Commander, Colonel Fogelman (later CoS of the USAF) was the "Installation Commander." Under him was the Vice Wing Commander. Then two sides: operational and administrative. DO was ops and Base Commander was admin. Ops was higher in the pecking order than admin.

When the Armory was created there were three men, none of them military really, on it. The "manufacturing" commander was the Master Armorer. The "arsenal" commander was the Ordnance Store Keeper. The "Installation" commander was the head dude. Later that position was turned into a command for a service officer. Buffington and Blunt during the Krag era.

So Springfield was really an Armory and an Arsenal. The Armory made stuff. The Arsenal stored it. Springfield accepted Colt revolvers into the Arsenal. No "Armory" involvement if you think about it.

Transfer of new arms made at Springfield from the "Armory" side (production) to the "Arsenal" side was an official transfer. No different from transfer of revolvers from Colt to the Arsenal side. When the arms were inspected they were stamped. In respects to Colt it was by an Armory Employee. For the SA made guns it was the Master Armorer. Until the beginning of the Krag era when Porter gave up the ghost. Then it was no longer the job of the Master Armorer.

With me so far? The cartouche is an acceptance stamp. That denotes manufacturing. Thus a Krag with the CCV or JFC cartouche indicates something knocked together from parts.

When a gun was given a major overhaul it needed to be tested. If it passed the functional test it was so noted. It had proven out. It was proofed. It received a proof stamp. If it failed it went poof instead of proof. If it was a dog it went woof instead.

Sorry about that last. Those responsible were shot.

If a gun was returned to the armory or arsenal for major overhaul it'd have to be proven that it worked again. Thus another P banged on it. It didn't need to be accepted again though as it was already Army property. Thus an arsenal/armory overhaul would get a sanded stock (part of the rebuild) and new proof but not a new acceptance.

So with all that said the question on replacement stocks is "when and why?" If it was put on a gun just done from major overhaul it'd get the P stamp. Nothing to do with the stock. If the stock was put on in the field to replace a broken one it wouldn't. Why prove it out if you just replaced the stock?

So it's context based.

The stocks were black walnut. Minus bark. "Bark" the other thing a dog does. In addition to saying "woof."

Looped back twice then. Couldn't be helped.

[Mark Daiute]

Logic applied to stocks with proofs but no acceptance stamp.

So how bout those with initials behind the trigger guard?.

Thank you Mr. Farmer. That was a good read.

[5MadFarmers]

Logic applied to stocks with proofs but no acceptance stamp.

So how bout those with initials behind the trigger guard?.

Thank you Mr. Farmer. That was a good read.


RDR? "Real Dense Rings." Only old growth slow growing Walnut was used for density.

I shouldn't make stuff like that up.

I don't know. I can guess. Patterns of course. Also that "walk sideways" thing. Mix in the "stuff didn't change" and it kind of makes sense.

Purchased many RIA products? Same era? WTG, DCL, EHS, TCC, HEK, etc., Fine men indeed. Stamped straps and pouches and all kinds of items made from leather. Helps us date the undated stuff as their eras are known. Look closer though and you'll more. Additional stamps in odd locations.

Harness makers. Did a nice search for those some time ago. Have a useful table of them.

Ergo the harness makers themselves stamped their work and the inspector then stamped the product.

Stock shop and water shop were different areas. I suspect, but do not know, that those stamps are stock workers. Hold a minute. Did the rosters.

Edward W. Rollins, as an example, was a "polisher" in the water shops.
Thomas H. Rodgers was an Inspector in the water shops.
Roswell D. Roper is just listed as an employee. But, and this is probably key, not listed in the water shops. Thus the wood shop I'd think. If they worked in the water shop it's listed as such. That's about half of them. Sundry other places, to include the wood shop, existed. James M. Roberts. Watchman. So not water shops and not wood work.

So RDR wasn't an inspector. Thus probably a woodworker. Stock shop.

Yeah, seems to be the case. The forge department was in the water shops. Lovejoy worked there. Water shops must have been physically separated as they have their own watchmen.

Did you know there was a navy inspector there?

[Dick Hosmer]

Could you perhaps be good enough to explain (without using analogies, metaphors, similies, parables, paradigms, to say nothing of the odd bit of Klingon) stocks with two (or more) cartouches and two Ps? Per your "already belonged to" assertion, they should not exist, but they do. Fairly common, in fact, on M1880 TRBs, M1886 XCs, and the rebuilt cadets of the late 1890s. Admittedly, those are TDs, and we were speaking of Krags, but they occur with them as well.

[5MadFarmers]

Could you perhaps be good enough to explain

Sure.


(without using analogies, metaphors, similies, parables, paradigms, to say nothing of the odd bit of Klingon)

No, it's who I am. Perhaps the two are linked? Both results of it being who I am?


stocks with two (or more) cartouches and two Ps?

Already did. In those previous posts. Sure I did. You just have to link them.



Purchased many RIA products? Same era?
Did you know there was a navy inspector there?
Transfer of new arms made at Springfield from the "Armory" side (production) to the "Arsenal" side was an official transfer.
With me so far? The cartouche is an acceptance stamp. That denotes manufacturing.
If a gun was returned to the armory or arsenal for major overhaul it'd have to be proven that it worked again. Thus another P banged on it. It didn't need to be accepted again though as it was already Army property.

McKeever boxes with NJ on them? NGP? USMC? Why not Minn? Why not FLA? Why not NGNY?

Depends on who it was for right? Some wanted their own markings and some didn't care. States aren't the US Army. Neither is the US Navy. I said walk sideways. That means compare to an analog. We see it in field gear.


Transfer of new arms made at Springfield from the "Armory" side (production) to the "Arsenal" side was an official transfer.

With me so far? The cartouche is an acceptance stamp. That denotes manufacturing.

If a gun was returned to the armory or arsenal for major overhaul it'd have to be proven that it worked again. Thus another P banged on it. It didn't need to be accepted again though as it was already Army property.

Did you know there was a navy inspector there?

You can take it from there right? Maybe I can do that because I'm me. Maybe I can do that because my head works that way. Start speaking the odd big of Klingon and it all just kind of makes sense.

[Mark Daiute]

This is an experiment so bear with me and thanks in advance.

http://s41.photobucket.com/user/Mayne1713/library/September%20Krag

none of the photos do justice to the craizing/bubling that was on the finish.

Rifle shoots as well as any Krag I've owned. Not as nice as some but I like it as an honest example.

[madsenshooter]

Looks to be varnish or shellac that got hot, maybe it was hung over the fireplace. Or it might be cooked cosmoline.

[Mark Daiute]

Whatever it was, it's gone now.

[ww321q]

Whatever it was, it's gone now.

:)

[psteinmayer]

Great looking 98 Mark!