Green Dot, Red Dot and Unique

[BruceHMX]

I have some down time this weekend and want to do some reloading.

One of my favorite plinking loads is a 32 S&W 90gr cast bullet loaded in a 303 British with 10gr of Unique. Very accurate on my 50 meter range.

At the beginning of the summer I found some Red and Green Dot at the local shop. For this lite of a load can I substitute either of these for the Unique?

If so keep it at 10gr's with each or lower/increase?

I have never used these powders. Anything to watch for I use a RCBS Little Dandy.

Thanks

[Jim in Salt Lake]

I use Red Dot for 9mm loads. I would seriously doubt you could substitute either powder for Unique on a grain to grain basis. You really need to look up the manufacturers loading data for your 32 S&W.

[PhillipM]

I've heard of using "The Load" in 30-06, I've not heard of it's use in 303, but it is listed in the article.

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

Red Dot in Reduced Rifle Loads

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot" (In most strong-actioned, military rifles of .30 cal. or larger)
READ ON FOR SPECIFICS AND WARNINGS!


By C.E. (Ed) Harris, Revised 2-16-94
Red Dot is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-06 size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

"The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Gas-checked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plain-based ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-06, 8x57 and .45-70.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever hand-loading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-06, you get (from a 24" sporter barrel) about 1450 fps with a 200gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170gr, or 1600 with a 150gr cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150fps less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.

My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. Of .22 backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheel-weights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The Load" drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion, but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately.

The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. The 85gr or 100gr Hornady or 90gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100gr .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild, but destructive varmint loads at 1600 fps from a .308 or '06.

If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110gr .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten-inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian and .303 British.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.). Substituting 13 grs. Of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6 cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater
savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

You can safely increase these charges up to 2 grains as needed to get best accuracy, but they will lead above 1300 fps unless gas-checked. Some individual rifles with smooth barrels shoot quite well up to 7 or 7.5 gr of these powders, but best accuracy is usually obtained when velocities are kept subsonic. I generally look for a velocity of 1080 +/- 30 fps These loads will usually shoot 2-1/2" to 3" groups at 100 yards. The minimum safe load which will always exit the barrel for indoor gallery work is about 4 grs. of the above powders.

More caution is required when assembling subsonic loads with jacketed bullets, because there is some risk of the bullet becoming lodged in the bore at near-subsonic velocities. You should not attempt to use less than 6 grs. of the above pistol or shotgun powders when loading jacketed bullets unless you check the bore after every shot and keep your hammer and ramrod handy!

[BruceHMX]

Much thanks!! That is exactly what I was looking for. Not to complicate but are Red and Green Dot pretty close or a big difference?

I used to use a filler with the Unique but quickly stopped as it was not needed. Now to see if I have a rotor for the 13grains. Or maybe use the same rotor I was using with the Unique and measure it. The article states that as low as 4grs can be used for indoor gallery loads. All I like to do is plink with my Martini and Enfield's. So looks like I won't blow anything up and no squibs so just experiment and have fun.

[Parashooter]

. . . are Red and Green Dot pretty close or a big difference?


In this application, pretty close. 10-grain charge .303 loads with 90 grain Hornady lead SWC, per QuickLOAD estimates -
Unique - 1930 fps, 14.4 kpsi
Grn.Dot - 1944 fps, 18.9 kpsi
Red Dot - 1994 fps, 21.7 kpsi

Such loads may be a bit fast for soft-swaged plain-base bullets. Better results likely with about 5 to 7 grains of Bullseye or Red Dot, giving predicted velocities in the .22 long-rifle neighborhood. Here's some more advice from C.E.Harris -

Cast Bullet Basics For Military Surplus Rifles
By C.E. Harris Rev. 9-6-93

Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical
field ranges with military battle sights than do full power
loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that
shoots a foot high at a hundred yards with surplus ammo when the
sight is as low as it will go!

Do NOT use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up the excess
empty space in the case. This was once common practice, but it
raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes
to chamber ringing. If a particular load will not work well
without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions
of loading.

Four load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for
the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges
to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which
provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any post-1898
military rifle from 7 mm to 8 mm:

1. 125-gr., plainbased "small game/gallery"
900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

2. 150-gr. plainbased "100-yd. target/small game",
1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent.

3. 150-180-gr. gaschecked "200-yard target"
1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grs. of #2400 or equivalent.

4. 180-200-gr. gaschecked "deer/600-yard target"
1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grs. of RL-7 or equivalent.

None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle
cases such as the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7
Jap, 7.62x54R or .30-'06. They can be used as basic load data in
most modern military rifles of 7 mm or larger, with a standard-
weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the
7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in
the 8 mm. For bores smaller than 7 mm, consult published data.

The "Small Game or Gallery" Load

The 110-115-gr. bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20
Winchester, such as the Lyman #311008, #311359 or #311316 are
not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a
readily-available .30 cal. cast small game bullet of the proper
125-130-gr. weight. LBT makes a 130-gr. flat-nosed, GC bullet
for the .32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I
recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver!

The "100-Yard Target and Small Game" Load

I use Mattern's plainbased "100-yard target load" to use up my
minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire 100-yard
practice. I substitute my usual gaschecked bullets, but without
the gascheck. I started doing this in 1963 with the Lyman
#311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-
lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most of my rifle shooting is done
with these two basic designs.

Bullets I intend for plainbased loads are blunted using a
flatnosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat which
makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes
them from my heavier gaschecked loads. This makes more sense to
me than casting different bullets. Bullet preparation is easy.
I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross
defects into the scrap box for remelting. Bullets with minor
visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without
sizing, and are used for plain-based plinkers. Bullets which are
visually perfect are sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain used for
200 yard matches. Gaschecks pressed onto their bases by hand
prior running into the lubricator-sizer.

For "gaschecked bullets loaded without the gascheck," for cases
like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and .30-'06 I
use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning pistol powder,
including, but not limited to Bullseye, W-W231, SR-7625, Green
Dot, Red Dot, or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9
grains of medium burning rate pistol or shotgun powders, such as
Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British size or
larger.
. . .
Repeated reloading of rimless cases with very mild loads results
in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless flash holes
are enlarged with a No.39 drill to 0.099" diameter. Cases which
are so modified must NEVER be used with full-power loads! ALWAYS
identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove
across the rim with a file and label them clearly to prevent
their inadvertent use. For this reason I prefer to do my
plainbased practice shooting in rimmed cases like the .30-30,
.30-40 Krag, .303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive
headspace on the rim and are not subject to this limitation.

The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise

Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his "100-yard
target" load, because this was common with the lead-bullet .32-40
target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with
nongascheck bullets in military rifles at lower velocities
approaching match-grade .22 Long Rifle ammunition. I use my
"Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-1100 f.p.s. to replace both
Mattern's "small game" and "100-yard target" loads, though I have
lumped it with the latter since it really serves the same
purpose. Its report is only a modest pop, rather than a crack.

If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal
bullet stability, increase the charge a half grain and try again.
If necessary increasing the charge no more than a full grain from
the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy.
If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is more blunt and short
for its weight, because it will be more easily stabilized. If
this doesn't do the trick, you must change to a gaschecked bullet
and a heavier load. . .

[tmark]

I've used all three powders for shotgun loads. From fastest to slowest burning rates is RD, GD, then U.