Marine A5 Sniper

[blackhawk2]

Would it be possible for you to post a history lesson of a WW1 marine sniper?....regards alex

[Fred]

Cool!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

What do you mean? Do you have someone in mind?

jt

[blackhawk2]

JT, I have thoroughly enjoyed your previous posts on USMC history during WW1...I was completely unaware of the USMC sniper killing Germans at 1400 yards...I do not have anyone in mind, because I don't know any WW1 USMC sniper history...Would it be possible for a history lesson on the most successful USMC sniper of WW1....Thanks again....regards alex

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

blackhawk2,

There isn't a lot on any one man. It is a compilation of many events. Col. Wise, for his many faults, learned to use them well, and his later assignment to an Army unit, he used them extensively. There are some interesting accounts. In one instance, a sniper from South Alabama was picking off retreating Germans when an officer told him to cease and desist. The Alabama boy told the officer that the officer's life meant nothing on the battlefield, and continued picking off Germans. That sort of encounter is almost unheard of in the Corps. I have tried to identify that sniper, but no success to date. In WWI, the sniper units were almost exactly as they were in Vietnam. They were a part of headquarters company, and were commanded by an G-2 Intelligence Officer. They were Scouts, Observers, and Snipers (SOS) and operated in two man teams. When not acting as SOS, they were part of their original unit (very different from Vietnam). That is what makes them so difficult to identify. Personnel records of known snipers contain no indication of their unique assignment. This is true of the 5th and 6th Regiments only, but they were the only two regiments in combat. I have only found one graduate of the OSD School of Sniping (SOS) that was known to have been in France early enough to have seen combat (his scope and case are for sell on eBay right now). I am certain he is not the only one, but identifying the others will be an arduous task indeed.

I do have the SOS curriculum from beginning to end. I can also prove that the USMC petitioned Periscope to write "Scout-Sniping" for use at the school. This little book sells for around $700 if you can find a copy. I have a copy that belonged to a sniper identified nowhere else. I also know the identity of Periscope, unknown for 90 years. I still communicate with his grand daughter occasionally.

What is humorous to me is that every sniper author in the business state that the sniper wasn't used much by the Corps in WWI. My response is "BS!" There were over 100 USMC snipers at Belleau Woods. I believe they all had one thing in common, one of the 125 Neidner USMC sniper rifles. I was originally asked to research these rifles by Michael Petrov (he had the Neidner connection data which he gave to me). I thought it would take a few weeks. It has taken years. Hidden in that data was the clue to the whole mystery. It took me a year to discover it. A chance encounter with a preacher whose father was the last living WWI USMC sniper closed the gap considerably.

I have tried to find every scope and case out there, but I know many exist that I do not know about. I need to get back to actively researching the group who actually fought in combat. They are the interesting ones.

jt

[kragluver]

Great info! I have read quite a lot regarding the Marines in WW1. I would love to hear more if you have it.

[Rick the Librarian]

Any intention of publishing your research?

[Shooter5]

Marine A5: please clear your message box.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Message box cleared and yes, I will eventually publish it all in a free form (no charge to read). I have no issue with making money, and research costs a lot of money (just ask JB), but it this case, the info would not make a continuous diatribe. It is like a mystery someone believes they have solved, as my theory involves how things became the way they were and who and why. The first USMC sniper school came to be because of a brother and sister and the friendship between two men. Unaware to many, there has long been a tiff between the Grunts and the Distinguished Shooters. To understand this tiff, one needs to have been a Marine. Marksmanship plays a big role in the Corps, or at least it did once, and in my own time. Basically, the Grunts don't think the Distinguished served any real purpose in the mission of the Corps. Did I get that right, you old timers (the ones who wore brown brogans)? So who brought about the first SOS? The Grunts or the Distinguished? Yes, Jim Land, I know the answer.

I found so many answers to long asked questions that I failed to accomplish my original mission - to identify the 125 Neidner rifles. I have identified about thirty of them, but not all. I know where they came from and who had them made and why. I don't feel complete yet. There is a secondary reason, and that is these rifles have identifying marks not known to the fakers - yet. Exact marks, exact placements, and I have never seen them on a rifle for sale - ever. If I can delay the fakery of these rifles until I can identify them all, I feel I will have served a purpose in life. Of the batch made by Winchester, I have seen less than ten originals. They too have similar markings. The scopes and cases abound, but all but two have one piece of the set missing. There was something that attached to the scope that is always missing. Its purpose shows the dedication to sniping of the Marine Corps in WWI.

jt

[blackhawk2]

Marine A5 Sniper....Thank you for sharing your knowledge....Would it be possible for you to explain the connection between Neidner rifles and the USMC snipers....regards alex

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Marine A5 Sniper....Thank you for sharing your knowledge....Would it be possible for you to explain the connection between Neidner rifles and the USMC snipers....regards alex

Sure. The 5th and 6th Marine Regiments were two of the first regiments to go to France. They had little preparation and no training for trench warfare. They were to be trained in France (they were, but stupid tactics, later to be abandoned for "Indian" tactics). As soon as war was declared, some interesting individuals who had kept abreast of the prevalence and effectiveness of sniping in the trenches planned a sniping school for the Marines at the "to be built" OSD. Concurrently, sniper training began at another location by one of these individuals. That person had A.O. Neidner mount scopes on 150 1903 Springfields using Winchester A5 scopes mounted in Mann-Neidner mounts. Those rifles would go with the 5th and 6th Marines to start the USMC sniper program in France. Winchester was contracted to build hundreds of rifles exactly like the ones by Neidner, but Winchester went one better and modified the mounts to further assist the sniper in his duties and added a device to assist the sniper's viewing. All of the rifles came from Winchester's stockpile of 1903's (they had a bunch of them). There are differences in the two sets of rifles. Even though Winchester copied the Neidner mounts, they were not identical. Both Neidner and Winchester marked their rifles, but with subtle differences. Quite a few of the Winchester rifles exist in collections today. Only one of Neidner's rifles still exists to my knowledge. The reason is that Neidner's rifles saw intense, and I mean intense, combat; and the Winchester rifle never saw the enemy.

Below are pictures of two of my favorite WWI Marine snipers, Sgt. LaValley and Gunner Estock (Alabama boy who lived not far from where Emri lives now). Note the clothing of Sgt. LaValley and look closely at the buttstock of his rifle (I can tell you its serial number). He is on the OSD rifle range, which was located behind where the headquarters complex is now.

jt:1948:

[Emri]

Gunner Estock (Alabama boy who lived not far from where Emri lives now)

Where would that have been ?? Sgt. LaValley looks more like an Alabama boy with those overalls and carrying his rifle like he was a deer hunter.

I just repaired a "sniper" rifle for a local LEO and he had the butt of his rifle built up with foam and duct tape. It looks like Sgt. LaValley did something similar to his.


Emri

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Opp. Bobby Bowden married his grand daughter (Ann). How's that for history?

Don't know exactly what he did. I have held that scope in my hands. Sgt. LaValley was the last living WWI Marine sniper. He died in a car accident at 96 years of age. He had a nice long life. I read his diary written during the war, and like most of us, he never did the things he planned to do as a young man.

jt

[blackhawk2]

Marine A5 Sniper, Thank you again for sharing your in depth knowledge of USMC history....Why is Sgt. Lavelley and Gunner Estock your two favorite snipers...Was there a particular reason why the Winchester scoped rifles sat out the war...thanks again....regaards alex

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Marine A5 Sniper, Thank you again for sharing your in depth knowledge of USMC history....Why is Sgt. Lavelley and Gunner Estock your two favorite snipers...Was there a particular reason why the Winchester scoped rifles sat out the war...thanks again....regaards alex

The Winchester rifles were delegated to the participants in the OSD sniper school who were assigned to the 11th and 13th Marine Regiments which never saw combat. The war was too short for America! Our "in combat" time was a little more than 5 months. Puts all those deaths in perspective in DPD (dead per day).

Estock (pronounced Istuk) was a 1st generation Slovenian immigrant to South Alabama where I was born. Sgt LaValley because I got to know his family so well, and from his diary, he and I had a lot in common.

As an added note, my grandfather fought alongside the Marines at St. Mihiel (right flank), and his regiment relieved a Marine push at the Meuse River. Old grand pappy was a killing machine.

jt